THESHADOWBOX.NET

Miscellaneous Ephemera => Scream Of Consciousness => Current Events => Topic started by: J_Beck on May 31, 2010, 10:16:36 AM

Title: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on May 31, 2010, 10:16:36 AM
Israel has had a blockade around Gaza since about 2007.

A group of ships tried to run it.

They were told they could go to an Israeli port and the aid would go through normal channels.

They ignored that and continued running the blockade.

Israeli forces boarded the vessels and were attacked with lead pipes.

Israeli forces fire.

Death toll 10 or more, many wounded from the people trying to get into Gaza, 10 Israelis were injured 2 seriously.

A huge ass international incident that could cause a lot of trouble in the middle east has happened.

And it looks like both sides made stupid moves and they could screw over a bunch of people in the region.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: CeeGBee on May 31, 2010, 02:30:02 PM
It'll be interesting to see how many videos of this get out.... but unless there's a
really clear, start-to-finish recording, it'll come down to who spins it better....

I mean, realistically, the "normal channels" Israel refers people to are essentially closed.
Get another permit, pay another license, go back to where you started and get permission
before setting out....

...but those "peaceful protesters"...  How peaceful are they really?  Picking a fight with heavily-armed
security forces (usually riot police) is a long-established tactic of "pacifist" groups, and sorry, if I'm the
commando/cop/national-guard guy with a gun, and you come at me with a knife or a lead pipe, you gonna
lose....  I'll let the highers-up at the Department deal with the bad press.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on June 01, 2010, 09:33:34 PM
I know my initial post was written after being awake for 26 hours but damn Shadowbox pick it up a little bit.

This is a major international incident and with talk of Turkey escorting further boats could get ugly if that happens.

Back during the war with Lebanon we had pages and pages, now nothing.

Go read up what is going on in the world, get a informed opinion, share it!
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: Drizz on June 01, 2010, 09:50:51 PM
I don't know too much about this, but I'm going to research it a bit before I comment.  All I know right now is, damn, Middle East.  C'mon.  I thought you guys were doing alright over there, for a minute?
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on June 01, 2010, 10:00:10 PM
I don't know too much about this, but I'm going to research it a bit before I comment.  All I know right now is, damn, Middle East.  C'mon.  I thought you guys were doing alright over there, for a minute?

As of late both sides have been trying to fuck it up.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: Drizz on June 01, 2010, 10:14:46 PM
I'm really curious to see what comes about with President Obama's meeting with Prime Minister Abbas on the 9th.  I wonder, though, why the Israeli Prime Minister cancelled his meeting with Obama?
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on June 01, 2010, 10:24:11 PM
I'm really curious to see what comes about with President Obama's meeting with Prime Minister Abbas on the 9th.  I wonder, though, why the Israeli Prime Minister cancelled his meeting with Obama?

He has a ton of shit to deal with, imagine if the US just had some major international incident which caused one of our neighbors to pull their ambassador.  Obama would come back right away even if there was an important meeting.

They will be conducting indirect talks though in the near future which is good since with the tensions I don't think face to face meetings would be good till this cools down, too much anger not enough facts.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: Drizz on June 01, 2010, 10:33:26 PM
I saw a military video of the Israeli forces landing on the flotilla, and it sure as shit looked like they were attacked first, immediately upon landing on the craft. . .
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on June 01, 2010, 10:46:06 PM
I saw a military video of the Israeli forces landing on the flotilla, and it sure as shit looked like they were attacked first, immediately upon landing on the craft. . .

There are 2 big things going on.

First Israel was slow getting their side of the story out so "unarmed aid workers shot" and "unprovoked shooting" were the headlines for hours and that has entered the echo chamber and still is being said by some.  Now it is pretty clear it was a ship full of activists many of which attacked the Israelis with potentially lethal weapons, and there are reports they wrestled away Israeli firearms and shot them.

One move I don't get is why Israel did it in international waters, by blockade standards this is normal (during the Cuban blockade we had a 500 mile radius from the coast as the quarantine zone) but they should have known it would look bad in the press which is a huge thing in this conflict.

The big issue most people who are against the Israelis bring up is saying the blockade should not be there in the first place.

And now more ships are going to try and run it, going back to why the PM went back every action now is under the microscope so him being there to personally oversee it is important.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: CeeGBee on June 02, 2010, 01:09:55 PM
Probably the biggest thing people are learning out of the current
incident is the true extent of the Israeli blockade. 

Officially, they're just trying to keep weapons from entering Gaza, thus protecting Israeli
civilians from those random rocket attacks. ONE (1) such civilian has actually died in
a rocket attack...  but seriously, you can't, as a government, let people shoot at ya like
that if you can possibly do anything about it, regardless of whether bees are a greater
threat than the rockets...

In fact (and the Israeli government has unofficially admitted as much), the objective was to
deprive the people in Gaza of day-to-day needs like medicine, fuel, and construction supplies
(someone keeps driving tanks and bulldozers through their houses).  These shortages, it was
believed, would make the average Gazan-on-the-street so miserable he'll renounce Hamas leadership. 

Hamas, meanwhile, has taken the shocking step of gaining popular support by pointing out claiming
that "Zionist oppressors" are responsible for the shortages.  Then they go on to call for death to the
Jews and destruction of Israel (see, ya had me right up to there...)  Further, they probably do "appropriate"
whatever supplies they can apply to military purposes:  as a lot of people here can probably tell you
from personal experience, building a rocket from everyday items is no big deal; it's easier if a specialist
provides the dry-fuel rocket motor and explosive warhead, but even these can be improvised.

So Isreali leaders have realized that the blockade is having exactly the opposite of the desired effect,
but they can't end it without giving Hamas a chance to say "HA!  We stood up to the Zionist pigs and
they backed down!"
...

So, in very short: a bunch of ideologues, zealots and politicians are fighting, and a lot of normal
just-tryin'-to-get-by folks are paying the price. 
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: armyoflarry on June 02, 2010, 04:39:44 PM
So, in very short: a bunch of ideologues, zealots and politicians are fighting, and a lot of normal
just-tryin'-to-get-by folks are paying the price. 

True of all major conflicts around the world.

Years ago I would have commented like a mad man in this thread, but now I just don't know what to say. Who shot first? Who is the real oppressor? Can America do anything to help, or is this whole situation doomed? Maybe some people in power in America are only interested in pretending to help in the public eye, and stoke the fires behind closed doors?

Fuck.

I care, I really fucking do. But sometimes for my own sanity, I shut it out. I am in one of those phases. Sorry.

I think David Bowie summed up my feelings perfectly on Tin Machine's "Goodbye Mr. Ed"

"Tolerance of violence
By the fellows with no heads
Goodbye Mr. Ed
Some things are so big
They make no sense
History is so small
People are so dense
Someone sees it all
Goodbye Mr. Ed"
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: CeeGBee on June 02, 2010, 10:57:29 PM
So, in very short: a bunch of ideologues, zealots and politicians are fighting, and a lot of normal
just-tryin'-to-get-by folks are paying the price. 
True of all major conflicts around the world.
Always has been, probably always will be.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: slyvia k on June 03, 2010, 05:24:06 AM
just thought i'd throw in this email and video i got from an israeli friend in tel aviv (from my days of being a barbra fan...)
this whole situation is so complicated and i just think every side is partially guilty... obviously the email is very partial.

dear friends
I am very frustrated with the way israel is presented in the world
i can not understand how the world choose to ignore and believe biased press releases.
it is easy to point the finger at us cause we are a nation but people forget our situation
we are surrounded by our worst enemies!
would you sit still if the enemy came to your house freely?
would you let any kind of boat to enter your country without any supervision?
no, you would get in the boat and check it out....and if you are hit, this is probably not a "peace" boat, give me a break!
we are hit and hit and hit and we do nothing, then 10 people is killed cause of the violence of some "peace seekers" and we are to be blamed!
i don't get why when we are killed no one cares?

http://www.youtube.com/v/kTRg74Gn_Nc&hl=it_IT&fs=1&
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: absynth aura on June 03, 2010, 06:19:04 AM
So, in very short: a bunch of ideologues, zealots and politicians are fighting, and a lot of normal
just-tryin'-to-get-by folks are paying the price. 

America do anything to help, or is this whole situation doomed? Maybe some people in power in America are only interested in pretending to help in the public eye, and stoke the fires behind closed doors?

One of the things that annoys me is the part in bold. That and America feels the need to be majorly involved in things like this, for good or for bad who is to say, I mean (slightly off topic) look at the South Korean ship sunk by a supposed North Korean missile, in every article I've read, I hear about Hillary Clinton trying to "force" China and Japan, and South Korea to retaliate. I can understand America showing support, but other than that there are cases when they need to keep out of the limelight, and in no way was that to offend anyone.

What I don't like about this incident is that there is so much uncertainty of what really happened. To be honest I don't know who to believe, and what to decide. One thing I do not like is the way the flotilla was boarded, did you hear about the Turkish woman who had to hide away with her baby while the "massacre" was happening? If they were concerned with what was on the ship, there are easier, and more peaceful ways to intercept and control what goes into Gaza.

Other than that, I did see yesterday a protest group outside the Israeli embassy in Wellington here protesting against the incident, and trying to have the Israeli ambassador expelled again after he was recently reinstated earlier this year. I don't see that as the way to go, but seeing that there was a New Zealand woman on board, and Israel is not speaking too clearly there is some frustration.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: Drizz on June 03, 2010, 10:02:57 AM
sylvia, I love your friend's message.  I agree, and was silently seething over it.  To every American who thinks, "What right do they have?  How dare they!"  It's the same thing we'd do here.  We have all kinds of border patrol around here, and yes, we stick our noses in business that isn't ours.  If a ship came around and tried to bust through borders we designed, I don't give a fuck what they're trying to do, the coast guard and our forces would be all over that shit.  I feel safe in my country, because of things like this.  There's danger everywhere in the world, but isn't a government supposed to protect its people?  And I completely have love in my heart for Israel, because they absolutely, 100% are surrounded by their worst enemies, and this is something that's been going on forever.  I feel like it's the ultimate persecution.

And you can tell your friend that there are people who care that they get killed.  I care.  And I reach out my condolences to him (or her) in this time of crisis.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: slyvia k on June 03, 2010, 12:01:57 PM
sylvia, I love your friend's message.  I agree, and was silently seething over it.  To every American who thinks, "What right do they have?  How dare they!"  It's the same thing we'd do here.  We have all kinds of border patrol around here, and yes, we stick our noses in business that isn't ours.  If a ship came around and tried to bust through borders we designed, I don't give a fuck what they're trying to do, the coast guard and our forces would be all over that shit.  I feel safe in my country, because of things like this.  There's danger everywhere in the world, but isn't a government supposed to protect its people?  And I completely have love in my heart for Israel, because they absolutely, 100% are surrounded by their worst enemies, and this is something that's been going on forever.  I feel like it's the ultimate persecution.

And you can tell your friend that there are people who care that they get killed.  I care.  And I reach out my condolences to him (or her) in this time of crisis.
it's a her, and thanks, i will tell her of your support  :)
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: absynth aura on June 03, 2010, 06:10:33 PM
sylvia, I love your friend's message.  I agree, and was silently seething over it.  To every American who thinks, "What right do they have?  How dare they!"  It's the same thing we'd do here.  We have all kinds of border patrol around here, and yes, we stick our noses in business that isn't ours.  If a ship came around and tried to bust through borders we designed, I don't give a fuck what they're trying to do, the coast guard and our forces would be all over that shit.  I feel safe in my country, because of things like this.  There's danger everywhere in the world, but isn't a government supposed to protect its people?  And I completely have love in my heart for Israel, because they absolutely, 100% are surrounded by their worst enemies, and this is something that's been going on forever.  I feel like it's the ultimate persecution.

I feel that, rereading what I wrote last night, that I may have a distorted sense of protection and reaction. I live on an island in the middle of nowhere where our the main thing that our border patrol patrols is the importation of drugs, and the odd boat load of immigrants that attempt to land. And I was only in America for a short period of time, so I can't really understand what goes on there, as for the Israel thing, maybe I should talk to my Grandparents, they're heavily involved in working around these sorts of things. But I do agree that there is danger everywhere, but to different degrees everywhere. One thing I can say is that America doesn't face the threat of missile attacks from Mexico on a almost constant basis.

I guess what I'm trying to say, that while we can all discuss our views on this subject till the cows come home, there is a high chance that by talking based on our backgrounds and travels and learnings etc, most of what we say will, in reality, not fully represent the problems faces in Israel and Palestine, or in any other conflicting countries for that matter.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: Drizz on June 03, 2010, 10:38:29 PM
America doesn't face the threat of missile attacks from Mexico on a almost constant basis.

Absolutely not, and I wasn't, in any way, implying that.  I'm sorry if you inferred it that way, maybe I miscommunicated.

I guess what I'm trying to say, that while we can all discuss our views on this subject till the cows come home, there is a high chance that by talking based on our backgrounds and travels and learnings etc, most of what we say will, in reality, not fully represent the problems faces in Israel and Palestine, or in any other conflicting countries for that matter.

Do you disagree that Israel has been attacked for centuries, probably more than any other country or nation?

they absolutely, 100% are surrounded by their worst enemies, and this is something that's been going on forever.  I feel like it's the ultimate persecution.

It seems as though you believe I was trivializing the situation when, in fact, I wasn't.  I feel as though it's probably one of the most dangerous places to live your life, what with landmines and extremist attacks and, essentially, racism and long-standing hatred and contempt.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: Morpheus Laughing on June 03, 2010, 11:46:02 PM
At the moment I can offer only a simplistic take on this but…

It’s heavily political and loaded with all kinds of propaganda from whatever side you observe.

History has been bad for the whole region… There are disputes about occupied territory and suspicion about religious objectives that are related to the “Promised Land.” There is also the craziness of the paranoia about it all and the craziness of trying to convey that there is justification in feeling paranoid.

The difficulty of the recent situation is that there is, as this thread suggests, a threat to peace negotiations which means that sympathy votes for Israel have probably been lost. Presumably Turkey will suffer too but this attention is generally centred on military action against civilians, which makes Israel look especially aggressive. In the region, the prejudices of those in opposition to Israel will have their suspicions confirmed that Israel’s militaristic reputation is deserved.
….
International reaction to a situation is mere convention. Individual territories break the rules if they can and work them as well as possible. They just try and do it politely. Israel can't really get away with doing that.

Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: absynth aura on June 04, 2010, 06:37:20 AM
America doesn't face the threat of missile attacks from Mexico on a almost constant basis.

Absolutely not, and I wasn't, in any way, implying that.  I'm sorry if you inferred it that way, maybe I miscommunicated.
No no, it was an over exaggeration on my part, what I was meaning was that Israel/Gaza are some of the most dangerous places to live, and until people know what it's like to live there, then we can't offer an honest opinion, just opinions based on our upbringings/morals etc

I guess what I'm trying to say, that while we can all discuss our views on this subject till the cows come home, there is a high chance that by talking based on our backgrounds and travels and learnings etc, most of what we say will, in reality, not fully represent the problems faces in Israel and Palestine, or in any other conflicting countries for that matter.

Quote
Do you disagree that Israel has been attacked for centuries, probably more than any other country or nation?
No, most definitely not. In fact I fully agree with what you've said there, I'd be hard to think of one country who has been attacked more than Israel.

they absolutely, 100% are surrounded by their worst enemies, and this is something that's been going on forever.  I feel like it's the ultimate persecution.

Quote
It seems as though you believe I was trivializing the situation when, in fact, I wasn't.  I feel as though it's probably one of the most dangerous places to live your life, what with landmines and extremist attacks and, essentially, racism and long-standing hatred and contempt.
Israel would be one of the most dangerous place to live, even my Grandparents found that during a work trip to Jerusalem, and they were only there for a week.
I'm not so good with words at the moment. I think that I may have misinterpreted what you were saying slightly, and tried to clarify things in the wrong way?
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: Drizz on June 04, 2010, 08:45:48 AM
until people know what it's like to live there, then we can't offer an honest opinion, just opinions based on our upbringings/morals etc

I know what you're saying, and we're on the same page, but just for the sake of debate (I'm a debater  ;)), isn't that all an opinion is?  An honest opinion?  That's why different people have different opinions; we're influenced by our environment, our families, our friends, etc.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: 85283-071 on June 04, 2010, 10:20:26 PM
I think the notion that America has reasonable options of non-involvement is naive. The Korean situation is critical to the entire world. South Korea is a huge economy. Unless someone else has the pull to mitigate the risk presented by their Northern neighbors, America should be thanked for its presence there. Besides, we are committed. I think people undervalue the international interests of the US. It's sad that the association is riddled with blunders and that it seems like so much meddling, but the world isn't so simple as to allow its most powerful nation to take a passive role when catastrophe looms.

If anything, the argument should be for deeper and wiser involvement.

Israel is tricky business. In so many ways, their interests are the same as those of the United States. The link is so strong that their mistakes become those of the United States. Honestly, the potential for resolution is hampered by the extremely right-wing politics of the Netanyahu administration. Just when the US managed to get the Right out of office...
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: Drizz on June 05, 2010, 01:56:19 PM
You're right.  I think the only thing backing me up would be Vietnam, but everything else. . .  we have a large responsibility to diplomacy and good-will ambassador-ing. 
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: CeeGBee on June 05, 2010, 03:07:25 PM
You're right.  I think the only thing backing me up would be Vietnam, but everything else. . .  we have a large responsibility to diplomacy and good-will ambassador-ing. 
Call me sometime and I'll explain how we got ourselves stuck in VN, and how it's
vaguely similar in a couple of ways to Israel's situation in Gaza...
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: absynth aura on June 05, 2010, 08:33:00 PM
So how about that second flotilla?
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: CeeGBee on June 05, 2010, 09:06:01 PM
So how about that second flotilla?

Quote
According to Israeli military accounts, commandos boarded the Rachel Corrie – named after an
activist crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer in Gaza in 2003 – from naval vessels alongside
rather than winching troops from helicopters as happened in Monday's operation.

The boat, carrying medical supplies and construction materials, was towed into Ashdod. Israel
said it would unload the aid and transfer it to Gaza.
It'll be interesting to see how much of that they actually decide to transfer...

Full Story from The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-rachel-corrie-israel)
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: The Angel Raliel on June 06, 2010, 03:33:36 AM
the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: earthshine on June 06, 2010, 05:29:00 AM
the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation
I like everything about this post O0
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: Indja on June 06, 2010, 08:45:03 AM
I hate these things - I know that if I understood what was happening, I could have an opinion, but I just don't get it. I think it's because when things like this happen, everyone involved already know the back-story and no-one ever tells you what's happened/happening from the beginning. I'm lost.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: SomewhatDamaged on June 06, 2010, 08:59:31 AM
the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation

Boarding a vessel in international waters is NOT illegal. It carries it's own set of rules but it is common occurance & is regularly done by most nations. Smugglers & pirates are often intercepted in International Waters.
The question on this incident is was the boarding of the ship carried out in the proper manner & was the level of resistance met by the Isreali army proportional to the reaction?
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: Drizz on June 06, 2010, 10:04:56 AM
the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation
I like everything about this post O0

Please tell me it's not because it sounded smart and you didn't have to form your own opinion.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: earthshine on June 06, 2010, 10:46:59 AM
the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation
I like everything about this post O0

Please tell me it's not because it sounded smart and you didn't have to form your own opinion.
Not this time, but I have been guilty of doing that in the past, I admit...

I know I'm no expert, and these opinions are largely unfounded (I wasn't even alive when the Israel/Palastine troubles started!), but it seems to me that a blockade like this one is only making conditions in Gaza worse, and risks fostering more resentment and trouble? I'll allow Israel the right to secure its land borders as self-defence, but surely they shouldn't be stopping Gaza from trading with the outside world completely?
And I think this is particularly true in this case because the ships were aid ships...surely Israel has no right to stop aid getting to Gaza?
(it should be said I'm not entirely clear with exactly what happened, particularly in the case of the more violent of the two incidents, but I'm not sure anyone is really...)
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on June 06, 2010, 12:33:42 PM
the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation

Under international law you are allowed to stop and board ships in international waters during a blockade.

In the 1960's our quarantine zone was 500 miles out from Cuba's coast.

Hamas also did not take power peacefully, they won a slight majority in the parliament (56%) but a government could not be formed, then a civil war in Gaza happened with Hamas winning and the PLO going to the west bank which is what started this blockade because Israel does not want people flowing freely into its land from a place where the government has as part of their charter the destruction of Israel.

You can make points both ways but in no ways is this a black and white issue as your post suggests.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on June 06, 2010, 12:40:14 PM
the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation
I like everything about this post O0

Please tell me it's not because it sounded smart and you didn't have to form your own opinion.
Not this time, but I have been guilty of doing that in the past, I admit...

I know I'm no expert, and these opinions are largely unfounded (I wasn't even alive when the Israel/Palastine troubles started!), but it seems to me that a blockade like this one is only making conditions in Gaza worse, and risks fostering more resentment and trouble? I'll allow Israel the right to secure its land borders as self-defence, but surely they shouldn't be stopping Gaza from trading with the outside world completely?
And I think this is particularly true in this case because the ships were aid ships...surely Israel has no right to stop aid getting to Gaza?
(it should be said I'm not entirely clear with exactly what happened, particularly in the case of the more violent of the two incidents, but I'm not sure anyone is really...)

The issue is Hamas and that is why Israel AND Egypt put up the blockade, it is a really fucked situation now because in essence there are 2 separate Palestinian states with independent governments who hate each other.

Think if the people of Canada elected a government with one of their main goals being to destroy the US and was lobbing rockets into Detroit and other US boarder cities, what would we do?

That is the big issue in Israel, what to do........

There really is no right answer, if they allow free passage of people and materials they risk rockets and suicide bombings, if they shut it down then they are hurting the people of Gaza.

If Hamas was not elected and later Kadima got at least a 50% majority instead of just the most seats (Likud and Labor made a deal to form a government) cooler heads would be in there but that is not the case so we got to figure out what to do with the world now.  Hell if Rabin was not killed or Arafat did not walk away from negotiations when offered 95% of the west bank and all of Gaza without even making a counter offer this could not be an issue at all.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: 85283-071 on June 13, 2010, 10:26:02 AM
I'm in full agreement with JBeck. That said, I think Israel is playing its current hand very sloppilly.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: Tiervexx on June 30, 2010, 06:37:37 PM
I think the notion that America has reasonable options of non-involvement is naive. The Korean situation is critical to the entire world. South Korea is a huge economy. Unless someone else has the pull to mitigate the risk presented by their Northern neighbors, America should be thanked for its presence there.

Yes, and with that huge economy they could raise their own army that could squash North Korea if they wanted.  Our help is simply unnecessary.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on July 02, 2010, 08:42:10 PM
I think the notion that America has reasonable options of non-involvement is naive. The Korean situation is critical to the entire world. South Korea is a huge economy. Unless someone else has the pull to mitigate the risk presented by their Northern neighbors, America should be thanked for its presence there.

Yes, and with that huge economy they could raise their own army that could squash North Korea if they wanted.  Our help is simply unnecessary.

Not without having their whole country destroyed, I think the time frame is 2 hours for Seoul to be leveled by North Korean artillery not to mention they have nuclear weapons.  One salvo from these gun would kill tens of thousands in seconds, and they are aimed ready to fire.

North Korea puts EVERYTHING into their military and while it is not a match for the US it would not be a cakewalk for us to take them out.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: absynth aura on August 09, 2010, 12:50:16 AM
Way to bump. But Sir Geoffery Palmer is heading up the international inquiry into the attack. Let's see what comes of it.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: The Angel Raliel on August 09, 2010, 03:17:25 AM
nothing to do with isreal stealing all the fertile land?
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: CeeGBee on August 09, 2010, 04:28:33 PM
nothing to do with isreal stealing all the fertile land?

Pogrom: It's not just for Tsars anymore.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: loreyy on August 10, 2010, 01:24:12 AM
I'm really curious to see what comes about with President Obama's meeting with Prime Minister Abbas on the 9th.  I wonder, though, why the Israeli Prime Minister cancelled his meeting with Obama?
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on August 12, 2010, 11:59:13 PM
nothing to do with isreal stealing all the fertile land?

Care to put more detail in this post?

The reason I ask is your last post on this issue claimed a crime when precedent in international law (Cuban missile crisis) shows that you can put a blockade out into international waters so I am wondering where your sources come from and what specific information you know on the conflict.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on August 22, 2010, 10:15:48 PM
If anyone wants to learn more about this incident a friend sent me this today and it does a pretty good job of showing what happened:

http://www.youtube.com/v/4594E-9PnEg

http://www.youtube.com/v/kUAqp2o1S64
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: The Angel Raliel on October 04, 2010, 02:47:30 AM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1004/1224280310856.html
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on October 05, 2010, 02:14:53 AM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1004/1224280310856.html

I am for continuing the partial freeze but that article is conveniently leaving out important information.  That being Israel has shown it is willing to give up land for peace be it the Sinai with Egypt or more recently Sharon's pull out of Gaza as well as some West Bank settlements.  There might be a faction of Israelis who want all the land to be Israeli but they are small and every country has a certain percentage of fundamentalists.

The number one party in Israel is Kadima a secular party which was created in the process of creating the policy of that pull out I mentioned and has members from Likud and labor.  I actually saw former deputy PM and current Knesset member Tzipi Livni today who is also the leader of Kadima and current opposition leader at a town hall style meeting and she was talking a lot about the need for peace and negotiations and arguments with current policies.  One thing you need to remember about Israeli politics is there are countless parties in the Knesset and Netanyahu's coalition is largely filled with right wing ones which are pushing him that way since if he goes against them they can pull out and then he is no longer PM.  Hopefully after the next election the right wing parties will lost some seats because the youth in Israel is largely secular.
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: The Angel Raliel on October 05, 2010, 03:03:49 AM
you are aware that isreal is threatening to start building again right now?
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on October 05, 2010, 08:19:26 AM
you are aware that isreal is threatening to start building again right now?

I'm sorry but you need to keep up on this subject more if you are to have such a strong opinion, Israel never fully stopped just reduced the building.  Also while there was not massive building on the 30th a few projects have already started but they have also restrained the number that did.  The party that did let the freeze expire was Likud not Kadima who is in power with the right wing parties currently, I was against this move but it looks like Bibi is smarting up:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-urges-top-ministers-to-extend-settlement-freeze-1.317164 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-urges-top-ministers-to-extend-settlement-freeze-1.317164)
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: CeeGBee on October 05, 2010, 10:52:24 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1004/1224280310856.html

I am for continuing the partial freeze but that article is conveniently leaving out important information.  That being Israel has shown it is willing to give up land for peace be it the Sinai with Egypt or more recently Sharon's pull out of Gaza as well as some West Bank settlements.  There might be a faction of Israelis who want all the land to be Israeli but they are small and every country has a certain percentage of fundamentalists.

The number one party in Israel is Kadima a secular party which was created in the process of creating the policy of that pull out I mentioned and has members from Likud and labor.  I actually saw former deputy PM and current Knesset member Tzipi Livni today who is also the leader of Kadima and current opposition leader at a town hall style meeting and she was talking a lot about the need for peace and negotiations and arguments with current policies.  One thing you need to remember about Israeli politics is there are countless parties in the Knesset and Netanyahu's coalition is largely filled with right wing ones which are pushing him that way since if he goes against them they can pull out and then he is no longer PM.  Hopefully after the next election the right wing parties will lost some seats because the youth in Israel is largely secular.
Optimistic, but imaginary...  As long as the military/far-right keep the war(s) on the front pages, incite
the neighbors far and near to keep saying hateful and inflammatory things, and spin any efforts to make
peaceful connections with those neighbors as "weakness in the face of the enemy" (throw in a few words
like "terrorist"...), they'll always be at the very least the senior partner in a coalition. 

...which will leave them in a position to perpetuate the aforementioned war-rhetoric.

There's a quote that came to mind, and I looked up its origins and - surprise surprise - it comes from
a history of the 1956 Suez Crisis: "All politics is domestic politics" - Richard Neustadt
Title: Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
Post by: J_Beck on October 06, 2010, 02:39:15 AM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1004/1224280310856.html

I am for continuing the partial freeze but that article is conveniently leaving out important information.  That being Israel has shown it is willing to give up land for peace be it the Sinai with Egypt or more recently Sharon's pull out of Gaza as well as some West Bank settlements.  There might be a faction of Israelis who want all the land to be Israeli but they are small and every country has a certain percentage of fundamentalists.

The number one party in Israel is Kadima a secular party which was created in the process of creating the policy of that pull out I mentioned and has members from Likud and labor.  I actually saw former deputy PM and current Knesset member Tzipi Livni today who is also the leader of Kadima and current opposition leader at a town hall style meeting and she was talking a lot about the need for peace and negotiations and arguments with current policies.  One thing you need to remember about Israeli politics is there are countless parties in the Knesset and Netanyahu's coalition is largely filled with right wing ones which are pushing him that way since if he goes against them they can pull out and then he is no longer PM.  Hopefully after the next election the right wing parties will lost some seats because the youth in Israel is largely secular.
Optimistic, but imaginary...  As long as the military/far-right keep the war(s) on the front pages, incite
the neighbors far and near to keep saying hateful and inflammatory things, and spin any efforts to make
peaceful connections with those neighbors as "weakness in the face of the enemy" (throw in a few words
like "terrorist"...), they'll always be at the very least the senior partner in a coalition. 

...which will leave them in a position to perpetuate the aforementioned war-rhetoric.

There's a quote that came to mind, and I looked up its origins and - surprise surprise - it comes from
a history of the 1956 Suez Crisis: "All politics is domestic politics" - Richard Neustadt

That is the issue, as long as the ultra right wing parties have the power to pull out and have Bibi lose being PM he has to basically do what they say and Lieberman (theirs not ours.....but ours has been stupid too in recent months but on other topics  ;D ) keeps being an idiot it is an obstacle to peace.