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[Indja]

to indja: it's one thing to use auto tune as an added effect which many artists have done, it's totally different when almost all singers now a days NEED to use it so that it sorta sounds like they can hit the right notes...also i'm just kinda getting sick of that whole thing (unless it's in dance/techno/electronica because then it makes sense since it's ya know electronic) i just dont understand why people all the sudden think it's the shit, if you cant sing then you cant sing to bad, granted as i said before if you have lyrics that make up for it then awesome i dont care, but if you're a shit singer with shit lyrics, then you honestly should not be a musician no please go away

I don't mean they use it as an effect, I mean they use it to hit the notes - I can carry a tune no problem, but sometimes I manage to write a song that I can't actually sing xD Autotune can be used to make a good singer just a little bit better, but I personally hate it when it's used as an effect in electro and stuff. There are SO many awesome things you can do to a vocal, autotune just sounds cheap and lazy - yesterday I made it sound like there was a voice at the back of your head speaking through a telephone in a dungeon. 'Twas awesome xD But autotune just pisses me off when it's used as an effect - it's just sooo over-fucking-done >.< Doesn't even sound good though, you know? Like music will always repeat itself and take from what came before it and all that, but FUCK I hope autotune has had it's day.

</techy nerd rant>

[Morpheus Laughing]

Using autotune can actually make a fairly good singer worse in the long term because of the way people get used to approximating pitch. This pitching problem can occur because the singer hears the correction and then adjusts the vocal as if singing without autotune. Autotune will again correct this drift and the process repeats. It won’t be obvious at first but over time it can reduce a singers intuition towards hitting the notes at the correct pitch.

The way around it is to ensure that the singer hears an unprocessed mix (or only marginally processed mix) when performing. The only snag is that hearing a corrected mix can be a real confidence booster for the singer and actually enhance the performance because the singer is enjoying the performance more. Few singers, even very good ones, hit notes dead on so it's potentially a problem that will catch out the better singers too.

Any thoughts on auto-doubling? It’s kind of like having double tracked vocals live. Quite a few performers are using it…   

[Indja]

I've not worked with any singers that aren't, um, at my college doing music tech xD So I don't really know about that side of things, as I'm mostly just edited myself or a friend - usually myself. On a personal note though, I hate listening to my old takes when I'm recording - I like having lots that are all a bit different and then layering them up or cutting bits out of one and putting it in another or whatever, it appeals to me xD If you don't have the confidence to perform even if you think you might be a bit crummy then I don't know why you'd be in a studio anyway.

I don't like auto-doubling much either, tbh - I think that a live performance should be as live as possible, and if that means changing your sound then so be it. It's just a personal thing though, I don't think it's as much of a problem as auto-tuning.

[CeeGBee]

wot about... and a couple of artists I quite like do this a bit....
People who use a loop-pedal to provide their own "live" backup
vocals or rhythm track?

[Indja]

Then that's still their talent being put to use in the moment - if I complained there, I'd end up saying no-one should use instruments at all xD

[CeeGBee]

Then that's still their talent being put to use in the moment - if I complained there, I'd end up saying no-one should use instruments at all xD

I agree precisely.

[Morpheus Laughing]

Indja:

I haven’t used autotune on anyone but I have something that is capable of doing it and the manual warns about pitch drift. That’s about as much as I know about it. The confidence I’m talking about is more of a buzz-like confidence that you get when things are going well or when the singer isn’t under pressure to get it right. It’s not about having serious doubts about performing. My former sound engineering tutor said that he would often not tell the singer that he was recording the test run because there was always a chance that the recording would be the best one. A singers anticipation about serious recordings often meant that this was the time when they would believe there was nothing at stake and give the most relaxed performance. Some recording applications acknowledge this psychological factor and have a pre-record feature built into software that saves a certain amount of mic input without it being officially recorded... Autotune can serve a similar purpose and let a performer know that as long as they are in a general target zone they are going to sound good.

I’m trying to figure out if I like auto-doubling. It can sometimes sound a bit too much but on some settings it seems quite subtle. I keep thinking of the resistance that people put up against the electric guitar and wonder if vocals might be going through a similar revolution. After all, you can use auto-doubling on a guitar and no one would think twice about it.

wot about... and a couple of artists I quite like do this a bit....
People who use a loop-pedal to provide their own "live" backup
vocals or rhythm track?

A band I played for used synth and drum backing tracks and you could tell some people got it and others didn’t. The main problem is that major parts can lose chemistry and sound a bit mechanical and rigid. In a live performance players will be responding to each other’s playing and making very subtle adjustments that create a sense of organic unity in the music. Some music is fine without this and if anything dance music depends heavily on a strict tempo so that its use of time dependent delays can pay off. In practice it is sometimes better than the alternatives and I think I would choose this method if I were going to seriously make music.

[CeeGBee]

Rather than a pre-recorded backing track, I meant...

...um, watch: I find this very clever.  It's just the one performer, truly playing
"live", but using technology to create a much more layered sound...
(I'm told she developed the technique while busking on sidewalks and in train stations...)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/HYEU91d8ngc" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/HYEU91d8ngc</a>

[tanqgirl]

honestly i have NEVER had a problem correctly hitting notes, and neither do any other real singers, sure there's that every once in a while thing so you redo it, it's not that big of a deal, auto tune is just another lazy way for people to pretend that they're much better then they really are which is stupid

also i like the when people like bobby mcferrin does things like ceegbee is talking about, it's the shit

[Indja]

I'm not doubting that you're an ace singer, but I think your capslockworthy "never" is pretty rare. I'm not saying use it when someone can't even get near to the note, but if they're like a fraction off on an otherwise perfectly good take then why not?

I do love that layering thing KT Tunstall does - when I saw AFP the lady with the cello and the awesome hair who's name I've forgotten did it to spectacular effect. Love ittt.

Morpheus, my music tech teacher does that thing where you record the first take. He tried it on me though, and didn't realise that I suffer horribly from nerves and need at least three goes before I get a fucking grip and sing properly xD Needless to say, my first takes are never my best... (I know this sounds epically hypocritical after what I said about nerves, but I have to record my vocals in music tech, partly for the course and partly because I'm the only person in there who can sing that low. I sing like a man. Otherwise I'd really rather not.)

[Breschau]

when I saw AFP the lady with the cello and the awesome hair who's name I've forgotten did it to spectacular effect. Love ittt.

Zoe Keating?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/yYrcXX4nWOA&amp;feature=fvw" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/yYrcXX4nWOA&amp;feature=fvw</a>

I approve.

[Indja]

Yes!! I was pretty sure it was a Zoe but I didn't want to make a tit out of myself if it wasn't xD

[tanqgirl]

if you're that close to a note and miss it? then you need to practice more...i think we will never agree on this...it's probably because i am such a perfectionist when it comes to music that i feel like you should work as hard as fucking possible to be able to do it correctly, and also as far as the never missing notes, as long as they're inside the persons range i know many people who have no problem hitting them spot on granted if they're trying to sing something not in their range it's different

[Indja]

I think that you're right that we'll disagree xD I'm not a perfectionist, not by a long shot - obviously I don't like epic mistakes, but I quite enjoy fixing the little mistakes (it's the music tech geek in me xD).

[tanqgirl]

I think that you're right that we'll disagree xD I'm not a perfectionist, not by a long shot - obviously I don't like epic mistakes, but I quite enjoy fixing the little mistakes (it's the music tech geek in me xD).

makes sense, i could care less about the tech part except for just using tech things to record it or making electronic music