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Author Topic: Middle East Goes Crazy  (Read 7796 times)

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slyvia k

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2010, 12:01:57 PM »

sylvia, I love your friend's message.  I agree, and was silently seething over it.  To every American who thinks, "What right do they have?  How dare they!"  It's the same thing we'd do here.  We have all kinds of border patrol around here, and yes, we stick our noses in business that isn't ours.  If a ship came around and tried to bust through borders we designed, I don't give a fuck what they're trying to do, the coast guard and our forces would be all over that shit.  I feel safe in my country, because of things like this.  There's danger everywhere in the world, but isn't a government supposed to protect its people?  And I completely have love in my heart for Israel, because they absolutely, 100% are surrounded by their worst enemies, and this is something that's been going on forever.  I feel like it's the ultimate persecution.

And you can tell your friend that there are people who care that they get killed.  I care.  And I reach out my condolences to him (or her) in this time of crisis.
it's a her, and thanks, i will tell her of your support  :)
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absynth aura

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2010, 06:10:33 PM »

sylvia, I love your friend's message.  I agree, and was silently seething over it.  To every American who thinks, "What right do they have?  How dare they!"  It's the same thing we'd do here.  We have all kinds of border patrol around here, and yes, we stick our noses in business that isn't ours.  If a ship came around and tried to bust through borders we designed, I don't give a fuck what they're trying to do, the coast guard and our forces would be all over that shit.  I feel safe in my country, because of things like this.  There's danger everywhere in the world, but isn't a government supposed to protect its people?  And I completely have love in my heart for Israel, because they absolutely, 100% are surrounded by their worst enemies, and this is something that's been going on forever.  I feel like it's the ultimate persecution.

I feel that, rereading what I wrote last night, that I may have a distorted sense of protection and reaction. I live on an island in the middle of nowhere where our the main thing that our border patrol patrols is the importation of drugs, and the odd boat load of immigrants that attempt to land. And I was only in America for a short period of time, so I can't really understand what goes on there, as for the Israel thing, maybe I should talk to my Grandparents, they're heavily involved in working around these sorts of things. But I do agree that there is danger everywhere, but to different degrees everywhere. One thing I can say is that America doesn't face the threat of missile attacks from Mexico on a almost constant basis.

I guess what I'm trying to say, that while we can all discuss our views on this subject till the cows come home, there is a high chance that by talking based on our backgrounds and travels and learnings etc, most of what we say will, in reality, not fully represent the problems faces in Israel and Palestine, or in any other conflicting countries for that matter.
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2010, 10:38:29 PM »

America doesn't face the threat of missile attacks from Mexico on a almost constant basis.

Absolutely not, and I wasn't, in any way, implying that.  I'm sorry if you inferred it that way, maybe I miscommunicated.

I guess what I'm trying to say, that while we can all discuss our views on this subject till the cows come home, there is a high chance that by talking based on our backgrounds and travels and learnings etc, most of what we say will, in reality, not fully represent the problems faces in Israel and Palestine, or in any other conflicting countries for that matter.

Do you disagree that Israel has been attacked for centuries, probably more than any other country or nation?

they absolutely, 100% are surrounded by their worst enemies, and this is something that's been going on forever.  I feel like it's the ultimate persecution.

It seems as though you believe I was trivializing the situation when, in fact, I wasn't.  I feel as though it's probably one of the most dangerous places to live your life, what with landmines and extremist attacks and, essentially, racism and long-standing hatred and contempt.
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Morpheus Laughing

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2010, 11:46:02 PM »

At the moment I can offer only a simplistic take on this but…

It’s heavily political and loaded with all kinds of propaganda from whatever side you observe.

History has been bad for the whole region… There are disputes about occupied territory and suspicion about religious objectives that are related to the “Promised Land.” There is also the craziness of the paranoia about it all and the craziness of trying to convey that there is justification in feeling paranoid.

The difficulty of the recent situation is that there is, as this thread suggests, a threat to peace negotiations which means that sympathy votes for Israel have probably been lost. Presumably Turkey will suffer too but this attention is generally centred on military action against civilians, which makes Israel look especially aggressive. In the region, the prejudices of those in opposition to Israel will have their suspicions confirmed that Israel’s militaristic reputation is deserved.
….
International reaction to a situation is mere convention. Individual territories break the rules if they can and work them as well as possible. They just try and do it politely. Israel can't really get away with doing that.

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absynth aura

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2010, 06:37:20 AM »

America doesn't face the threat of missile attacks from Mexico on a almost constant basis.

Absolutely not, and I wasn't, in any way, implying that.  I'm sorry if you inferred it that way, maybe I miscommunicated.
No no, it was an over exaggeration on my part, what I was meaning was that Israel/Gaza are some of the most dangerous places to live, and until people know what it's like to live there, then we can't offer an honest opinion, just opinions based on our upbringings/morals etc

I guess what I'm trying to say, that while we can all discuss our views on this subject till the cows come home, there is a high chance that by talking based on our backgrounds and travels and learnings etc, most of what we say will, in reality, not fully represent the problems faces in Israel and Palestine, or in any other conflicting countries for that matter.

Quote
Do you disagree that Israel has been attacked for centuries, probably more than any other country or nation?
No, most definitely not. In fact I fully agree with what you've said there, I'd be hard to think of one country who has been attacked more than Israel.

they absolutely, 100% are surrounded by their worst enemies, and this is something that's been going on forever.  I feel like it's the ultimate persecution.

Quote
It seems as though you believe I was trivializing the situation when, in fact, I wasn't.  I feel as though it's probably one of the most dangerous places to live your life, what with landmines and extremist attacks and, essentially, racism and long-standing hatred and contempt.
Israel would be one of the most dangerous place to live, even my Grandparents found that during a work trip to Jerusalem, and they were only there for a week.
I'm not so good with words at the moment. I think that I may have misinterpreted what you were saying slightly, and tried to clarify things in the wrong way?
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Drizz

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2010, 08:45:48 AM »

until people know what it's like to live there, then we can't offer an honest opinion, just opinions based on our upbringings/morals etc

I know what you're saying, and we're on the same page, but just for the sake of debate (I'm a debater  ;)), isn't that all an opinion is?  An honest opinion?  That's why different people have different opinions; we're influenced by our environment, our families, our friends, etc.
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2010, 10:20:26 PM »

I think the notion that America has reasonable options of non-involvement is naive. The Korean situation is critical to the entire world. South Korea is a huge economy. Unless someone else has the pull to mitigate the risk presented by their Northern neighbors, America should be thanked for its presence there. Besides, we are committed. I think people undervalue the international interests of the US. It's sad that the association is riddled with blunders and that it seems like so much meddling, but the world isn't so simple as to allow its most powerful nation to take a passive role when catastrophe looms.

If anything, the argument should be for deeper and wiser involvement.

Israel is tricky business. In so many ways, their interests are the same as those of the United States. The link is so strong that their mistakes become those of the United States. Honestly, the potential for resolution is hampered by the extremely right-wing politics of the Netanyahu administration. Just when the US managed to get the Right out of office...
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2010, 01:56:19 PM »

You're right.  I think the only thing backing me up would be Vietnam, but everything else. . .  we have a large responsibility to diplomacy and good-will ambassador-ing. 
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CeeGBee

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2010, 03:07:25 PM »

You're right.  I think the only thing backing me up would be Vietnam, but everything else. . .  we have a large responsibility to diplomacy and good-will ambassador-ing. 
Call me sometime and I'll explain how we got ourselves stuck in VN, and how it's
vaguely similar in a couple of ways to Israel's situation in Gaza...
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absynth aura

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2010, 08:33:00 PM »

So how about that second flotilla?
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2010, 09:06:01 PM »

So how about that second flotilla?

Quote
According to Israeli military accounts, commandos boarded the Rachel Corrie – named after an
activist crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer in Gaza in 2003 – from naval vessels alongside
rather than winching troops from helicopters as happened in Monday's operation.

The boat, carrying medical supplies and construction materials, was towed into Ashdod. Israel
said it would unload the aid and transfer it to Gaza.
It'll be interesting to see how much of that they actually decide to transfer...

Full Story from The Guardian
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2010, 03:33:36 AM »

the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2010, 05:29:00 AM »

the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation
I like everything about this post O0
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2010, 08:45:03 AM »

I hate these things - I know that if I understood what was happening, I could have an opinion, but I just don't get it. I think it's because when things like this happen, everyone involved already know the back-story and no-one ever tells you what's happened/happening from the beginning. I'm lost.
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2010, 08:59:31 AM »

the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation

Boarding a vessel in international waters is NOT illegal. It carries it's own set of rules but it is common occurance & is regularly done by most nations. Smugglers & pirates are often intercepted in International Waters.
The question on this incident is was the boarding of the ship carried out in the proper manner & was the level of resistance met by the Isreali army proportional to the reaction?
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