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Author Topic: Middle East Goes Crazy  (Read 7783 times)

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J_Beck

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Middle East Goes Crazy
« on: May 31, 2010, 10:16:36 AM »

Israel has had a blockade around Gaza since about 2007.

A group of ships tried to run it.

They were told they could go to an Israeli port and the aid would go through normal channels.

They ignored that and continued running the blockade.

Israeli forces boarded the vessels and were attacked with lead pipes.

Israeli forces fire.

Death toll 10 or more, many wounded from the people trying to get into Gaza, 10 Israelis were injured 2 seriously.

A huge ass international incident that could cause a lot of trouble in the middle east has happened.

And it looks like both sides made stupid moves and they could screw over a bunch of people in the region.
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CeeGBee

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 02:30:02 PM »

It'll be interesting to see how many videos of this get out.... but unless there's a
really clear, start-to-finish recording, it'll come down to who spins it better....

I mean, realistically, the "normal channels" Israel refers people to are essentially closed.
Get another permit, pay another license, go back to where you started and get permission
before setting out....

...but those "peaceful protesters"...  How peaceful are they really?  Picking a fight with heavily-armed
security forces (usually riot police) is a long-established tactic of "pacifist" groups, and sorry, if I'm the
commando/cop/national-guard guy with a gun, and you come at me with a knife or a lead pipe, you gonna
lose....  I'll let the highers-up at the Department deal with the bad press.
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J_Beck

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2010, 09:33:34 PM »

I know my initial post was written after being awake for 26 hours but damn Shadowbox pick it up a little bit.

This is a major international incident and with talk of Turkey escorting further boats could get ugly if that happens.

Back during the war with Lebanon we had pages and pages, now nothing.

Go read up what is going on in the world, get a informed opinion, share it!
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Drizz

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2010, 09:50:51 PM »

I don't know too much about this, but I'm going to research it a bit before I comment.  All I know right now is, damn, Middle East.  C'mon.  I thought you guys were doing alright over there, for a minute?
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J_Beck

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2010, 10:00:10 PM »

I don't know too much about this, but I'm going to research it a bit before I comment.  All I know right now is, damn, Middle East.  C'mon.  I thought you guys were doing alright over there, for a minute?

As of late both sides have been trying to fuck it up.
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Drizz

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2010, 10:14:46 PM »

I'm really curious to see what comes about with President Obama's meeting with Prime Minister Abbas on the 9th.  I wonder, though, why the Israeli Prime Minister cancelled his meeting with Obama?
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J_Beck

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2010, 10:24:11 PM »

I'm really curious to see what comes about with President Obama's meeting with Prime Minister Abbas on the 9th.  I wonder, though, why the Israeli Prime Minister cancelled his meeting with Obama?

He has a ton of shit to deal with, imagine if the US just had some major international incident which caused one of our neighbors to pull their ambassador.  Obama would come back right away even if there was an important meeting.

They will be conducting indirect talks though in the near future which is good since with the tensions I don't think face to face meetings would be good till this cools down, too much anger not enough facts.
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Drizz

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2010, 10:33:26 PM »

I saw a military video of the Israeli forces landing on the flotilla, and it sure as shit looked like they were attacked first, immediately upon landing on the craft. . .
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J_Beck

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2010, 10:46:06 PM »

I saw a military video of the Israeli forces landing on the flotilla, and it sure as shit looked like they were attacked first, immediately upon landing on the craft. . .

There are 2 big things going on.

First Israel was slow getting their side of the story out so "unarmed aid workers shot" and "unprovoked shooting" were the headlines for hours and that has entered the echo chamber and still is being said by some.  Now it is pretty clear it was a ship full of activists many of which attacked the Israelis with potentially lethal weapons, and there are reports they wrestled away Israeli firearms and shot them.

One move I don't get is why Israel did it in international waters, by blockade standards this is normal (during the Cuban blockade we had a 500 mile radius from the coast as the quarantine zone) but they should have known it would look bad in the press which is a huge thing in this conflict.

The big issue most people who are against the Israelis bring up is saying the blockade should not be there in the first place.

And now more ships are going to try and run it, going back to why the PM went back every action now is under the microscope so him being there to personally oversee it is important.
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CeeGBee

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2010, 01:09:55 PM »

Probably the biggest thing people are learning out of the current
incident is the true extent of the Israeli blockade. 

Officially, they're just trying to keep weapons from entering Gaza, thus protecting Israeli
civilians from those random rocket attacks. ONE (1) such civilian has actually died in
a rocket attack...  but seriously, you can't, as a government, let people shoot at ya like
that if you can possibly do anything about it, regardless of whether bees are a greater
threat than the rockets...

In fact (and the Israeli government has unofficially admitted as much), the objective was to
deprive the people in Gaza of day-to-day needs like medicine, fuel, and construction supplies
(someone keeps driving tanks and bulldozers through their houses).  These shortages, it was
believed, would make the average Gazan-on-the-street so miserable he'll renounce Hamas leadership. 

Hamas, meanwhile, has taken the shocking step of gaining popular support by pointing out claiming
that "Zionist oppressors" are responsible for the shortages.  Then they go on to call for death to the
Jews and destruction of Israel (see, ya had me right up to there...)  Further, they probably do "appropriate"
whatever supplies they can apply to military purposes:  as a lot of people here can probably tell you
from personal experience, building a rocket from everyday items is no big deal; it's easier if a specialist
provides the dry-fuel rocket motor and explosive warhead, but even these can be improvised.

So Isreali leaders have realized that the blockade is having exactly the opposite of the desired effect,
but they can't end it without giving Hamas a chance to say "HA!  We stood up to the Zionist pigs and
they backed down!"
...

So, in very short: a bunch of ideologues, zealots and politicians are fighting, and a lot of normal
just-tryin'-to-get-by folks are paying the price. 
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armyoflarry

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2010, 04:39:44 PM »

So, in very short: a bunch of ideologues, zealots and politicians are fighting, and a lot of normal
just-tryin'-to-get-by folks are paying the price. 

True of all major conflicts around the world.

Years ago I would have commented like a mad man in this thread, but now I just don't know what to say. Who shot first? Who is the real oppressor? Can America do anything to help, or is this whole situation doomed? Maybe some people in power in America are only interested in pretending to help in the public eye, and stoke the fires behind closed doors?

Fuck.

I care, I really fucking do. But sometimes for my own sanity, I shut it out. I am in one of those phases. Sorry.

I think David Bowie summed up my feelings perfectly on Tin Machine's "Goodbye Mr. Ed"

"Tolerance of violence
By the fellows with no heads
Goodbye Mr. Ed
Some things are so big
They make no sense
History is so small
People are so dense
Someone sees it all
Goodbye Mr. Ed"
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CeeGBee

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2010, 10:57:29 PM »

So, in very short: a bunch of ideologues, zealots and politicians are fighting, and a lot of normal
just-tryin'-to-get-by folks are paying the price. 
True of all major conflicts around the world.
Always has been, probably always will be.
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slyvia k

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2010, 05:24:06 AM »

just thought i'd throw in this email and video i got from an israeli friend in tel aviv (from my days of being a barbra fan...)
this whole situation is so complicated and i just think every side is partially guilty... obviously the email is very partial.

dear friends
I am very frustrated with the way israel is presented in the world
i can not understand how the world choose to ignore and believe biased press releases.
it is easy to point the finger at us cause we are a nation but people forget our situation
we are surrounded by our worst enemies!
would you sit still if the enemy came to your house freely?
would you let any kind of boat to enter your country without any supervision?
no, you would get in the boat and check it out....and if you are hit, this is probably not a "peace" boat, give me a break!
we are hit and hit and hit and we do nothing, then 10 people is killed cause of the violence of some "peace seekers" and we are to be blamed!
i don't get why when we are killed no one cares?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/kTRg74Gn_Nc&amp;hl=it_IT&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/kTRg74Gn_Nc&amp;hl=it_IT&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>
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absynth aura

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2010, 06:19:04 AM »

So, in very short: a bunch of ideologues, zealots and politicians are fighting, and a lot of normal
just-tryin'-to-get-by folks are paying the price. 

America do anything to help, or is this whole situation doomed? Maybe some people in power in America are only interested in pretending to help in the public eye, and stoke the fires behind closed doors?

One of the things that annoys me is the part in bold. That and America feels the need to be majorly involved in things like this, for good or for bad who is to say, I mean (slightly off topic) look at the South Korean ship sunk by a supposed North Korean missile, in every article I've read, I hear about Hillary Clinton trying to "force" China and Japan, and South Korea to retaliate. I can understand America showing support, but other than that there are cases when they need to keep out of the limelight, and in no way was that to offend anyone.

What I don't like about this incident is that there is so much uncertainty of what really happened. To be honest I don't know who to believe, and what to decide. One thing I do not like is the way the flotilla was boarded, did you hear about the Turkish woman who had to hide away with her baby while the "massacre" was happening? If they were concerned with what was on the ship, there are easier, and more peaceful ways to intercept and control what goes into Gaza.

Other than that, I did see yesterday a protest group outside the Israeli embassy in Wellington here protesting against the incident, and trying to have the Israeli ambassador expelled again after he was recently reinstated earlier this year. I don't see that as the way to go, but seeing that there was a New Zealand woman on board, and Israel is not speaking too clearly there is some frustration.
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Drizz

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2010, 10:02:57 AM »

sylvia, I love your friend's message.  I agree, and was silently seething over it.  To every American who thinks, "What right do they have?  How dare they!"  It's the same thing we'd do here.  We have all kinds of border patrol around here, and yes, we stick our noses in business that isn't ours.  If a ship came around and tried to bust through borders we designed, I don't give a fuck what they're trying to do, the coast guard and our forces would be all over that shit.  I feel safe in my country, because of things like this.  There's danger everywhere in the world, but isn't a government supposed to protect its people?  And I completely have love in my heart for Israel, because they absolutely, 100% are surrounded by their worst enemies, and this is something that's been going on forever.  I feel like it's the ultimate persecution.

And you can tell your friend that there are people who care that they get killed.  I care.  And I reach out my condolences to him (or her) in this time of crisis.
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