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Author Topic: Middle East Goes Crazy  (Read 7744 times)

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Drizz

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2010, 10:04:56 AM »

the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2010, 10:46:59 AM »

the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation
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Not this time, but I have been guilty of doing that in the past, I admit...

I know I'm no expert, and these opinions are largely unfounded (I wasn't even alive when the Israel/Palastine troubles started!), but it seems to me that a blockade like this one is only making conditions in Gaza worse, and risks fostering more resentment and trouble? I'll allow Israel the right to secure its land borders as self-defence, but surely they shouldn't be stopping Gaza from trading with the outside world completely?
And I think this is particularly true in this case because the ships were aid ships...surely Israel has no right to stop aid getting to Gaza?
(it should be said I'm not entirely clear with exactly what happened, particularly in the case of the more violent of the two incidents, but I'm not sure anyone is really...)
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J_Beck

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2010, 12:33:42 PM »

the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation

Under international law you are allowed to stop and board ships in international waters during a blockade.

In the 1960's our quarantine zone was 500 miles out from Cuba's coast.

Hamas also did not take power peacefully, they won a slight majority in the parliament (56%) but a government could not be formed, then a civil war in Gaza happened with Hamas winning and the PLO going to the west bank which is what started this blockade because Israel does not want people flowing freely into its land from a place where the government has as part of their charter the destruction of Israel.

You can make points both ways but in no ways is this a black and white issue as your post suggests.
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J_Beck

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2010, 12:40:14 PM »

the truth of the matter is that both of these boardings (the peacful one and the one where they killed a load of people) happened in INTERNATIONAL WATERS outside of the blockade zone....and thus were highly criminal.... the fact that aid is being interupted at all is wrong anyway.... palestinians are not allowed to leave the Gaza strip and are being forced into a situation of poverty and desperation
I like everything about this post O0

Please tell me it's not because it sounded smart and you didn't have to form your own opinion.
Not this time, but I have been guilty of doing that in the past, I admit...

I know I'm no expert, and these opinions are largely unfounded (I wasn't even alive when the Israel/Palastine troubles started!), but it seems to me that a blockade like this one is only making conditions in Gaza worse, and risks fostering more resentment and trouble? I'll allow Israel the right to secure its land borders as self-defence, but surely they shouldn't be stopping Gaza from trading with the outside world completely?
And I think this is particularly true in this case because the ships were aid ships...surely Israel has no right to stop aid getting to Gaza?
(it should be said I'm not entirely clear with exactly what happened, particularly in the case of the more violent of the two incidents, but I'm not sure anyone is really...)

The issue is Hamas and that is why Israel AND Egypt put up the blockade, it is a really fucked situation now because in essence there are 2 separate Palestinian states with independent governments who hate each other.

Think if the people of Canada elected a government with one of their main goals being to destroy the US and was lobbing rockets into Detroit and other US boarder cities, what would we do?

That is the big issue in Israel, what to do........

There really is no right answer, if they allow free passage of people and materials they risk rockets and suicide bombings, if they shut it down then they are hurting the people of Gaza.

If Hamas was not elected and later Kadima got at least a 50% majority instead of just the most seats (Likud and Labor made a deal to form a government) cooler heads would be in there but that is not the case so we got to figure out what to do with the world now.  Hell if Rabin was not killed or Arafat did not walk away from negotiations when offered 95% of the west bank and all of Gaza without even making a counter offer this could not be an issue at all.
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2010, 10:26:02 AM »

I'm in full agreement with JBeck. That said, I think Israel is playing its current hand very sloppilly.
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2010, 06:37:37 PM »

I think the notion that America has reasonable options of non-involvement is naive. The Korean situation is critical to the entire world. South Korea is a huge economy. Unless someone else has the pull to mitigate the risk presented by their Northern neighbors, America should be thanked for its presence there.

Yes, and with that huge economy they could raise their own army that could squash North Korea if they wanted.  Our help is simply unnecessary.
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J_Beck

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2010, 08:42:10 PM »

I think the notion that America has reasonable options of non-involvement is naive. The Korean situation is critical to the entire world. South Korea is a huge economy. Unless someone else has the pull to mitigate the risk presented by their Northern neighbors, America should be thanked for its presence there.

Yes, and with that huge economy they could raise their own army that could squash North Korea if they wanted.  Our help is simply unnecessary.

Not without having their whole country destroyed, I think the time frame is 2 hours for Seoul to be leveled by North Korean artillery not to mention they have nuclear weapons.  One salvo from these gun would kill tens of thousands in seconds, and they are aimed ready to fire.

North Korea puts EVERYTHING into their military and while it is not a match for the US it would not be a cakewalk for us to take them out.
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2010, 12:50:16 AM »

Way to bump. But Sir Geoffery Palmer is heading up the international inquiry into the attack. Let's see what comes of it.
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2010, 03:17:25 AM »

nothing to do with isreal stealing all the fertile land?
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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2010, 04:28:33 PM »

nothing to do with isreal stealing all the fertile land?

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2010, 01:24:12 AM »

I'm really curious to see what comes about with President Obama's meeting with Prime Minister Abbas on the 9th.  I wonder, though, why the Israeli Prime Minister cancelled his meeting with Obama?

J_Beck

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2010, 11:59:13 PM »

nothing to do with isreal stealing all the fertile land?

Care to put more detail in this post?

The reason I ask is your last post on this issue claimed a crime when precedent in international law (Cuban missile crisis) shows that you can put a blockade out into international waters so I am wondering where your sources come from and what specific information you know on the conflict.
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J_Beck

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2010, 10:15:48 PM »

If anyone wants to learn more about this incident a friend sent me this today and it does a pretty good job of showing what happened:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/4594E-9PnEg" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/4594E-9PnEg</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/kUAqp2o1S64" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/kUAqp2o1S64</a>
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J_Beck

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Re: Middle East Goes Crazy
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2010, 02:14:53 AM »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1004/1224280310856.html

I am for continuing the partial freeze but that article is conveniently leaving out important information.  That being Israel has shown it is willing to give up land for peace be it the Sinai with Egypt or more recently Sharon's pull out of Gaza as well as some West Bank settlements.  There might be a faction of Israelis who want all the land to be Israeli but they are small and every country has a certain percentage of fundamentalists.

The number one party in Israel is Kadima a secular party which was created in the process of creating the policy of that pull out I mentioned and has members from Likud and labor.  I actually saw former deputy PM and current Knesset member Tzipi Livni today who is also the leader of Kadima and current opposition leader at a town hall style meeting and she was talking a lot about the need for peace and negotiations and arguments with current policies.  One thing you need to remember about Israeli politics is there are countless parties in the Knesset and Netanyahu's coalition is largely filled with right wing ones which are pushing him that way since if he goes against them they can pull out and then he is no longer PM.  Hopefully after the next election the right wing parties will lost some seats because the youth in Israel is largely secular.
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