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[lentower]

thinking about it.....most of the nutrients plants grow in come from the deaths of other organisms, mainly invertebrates and othe plants, hydroponic and artificially grown crops are actually the only truly vegan plants on the planet....
particularly so with Organic produce as the death of an awful lot of insects is part and parcel with their production! (just not by chemicals)

Personally, as a green thumb, i'd say it's not fair to eat vegatables too. They totally are alive, i think some even has characteristic features too. For example my beautiful hoya carnosa, no matter how i put it into a place with lots of sun and enough water where she should be able to photosynthesize, i think she took it personal and resented because we can't see eachother as much as we used to do before  and yes, she's a she.

But as a person who works for a company that builds wheat and maize milling plants, it's a vicious circle. We have to put larva destroying machines to these processing lines, because it's not something people would like to have inside their flour packages or foods.
These pests and larvas need to live in and on these plants. Yet, i wouldn't like to eat them either.

It really is a vicious circle. We need food. There's no way in hell to produce enough artifically grown crops for everybody.

i have no numbers here before me, but i have read before that iowa by itself could make enough corn to feed the entire world.  i spent a summer 'detasseling' literally miles of corn, none of which was for human consumption (it was hybrid corn that couldn't reproduce by itself, hence the detasseling).  i still don't know the name of the company i worked for but i have a sneaking suspicion it was monsanto.  the corn was supposed to be used experimentally in biofuel, which they claimed back then would have replaced fossil fuels by now.  obviously they didn't predict how hard the auto industry would fight against biofuels, as twenty years later, like three people have still ever heard of biodeisel.

i know america has been paying farmers NOT to grow crops for almost as long as i've been alive...there is no telling how many people we could feed if it weren't about selling what we grow.

putting all arable land to use growing food isn't
necessary nor sufficient to feed all present humans

if we stopped using land to grow fuels and meat instead
of directly growing food for humans, we could let a lot of land
rest for a few years

but what would happen is that the world population would just go up.
we are still a species that breeds before we think.

the green revolution of the mid-twentieth century was about gowing more food
using man-made fertilizers, soil conservation techinques, and
other 'modern' farming practices.
the goal was to have no human starve,
to have all humans eat healthy and well.
what our species did instead, was breed more people.
more people alive and more people straving

[Agonistes]

putting all arable land to use growing food isn't
necessary nor sufficient to feed all present humans

if we stopped using land to grow fuels and meat instead
of directly growing food for humans, we could let a lot of land
rest for a few years

actually this isn't true.  if one STATE is enough to feed all humans for a year, the whole of food-bearing states can produce a surplus, obviously.  you talk as if we have no more than a tiny percent of available land in use already for agriculture, and that couldn't be more untrue.  the midwest alone is fucking huge, and can, as i said, produce enough food yearly to feed the entire planet.  we are, as i also said, paying farmers NOT to grow food.  because we already have more food than this nation can consume or throw out unconsumed.  by merely conserving what we already have we could feed half the world off what we throw away on our plates.  we don't even use a fraction of the land we already do use for agriculture to raise and produce meat; i don't know where you're getting the idea that pastures take up more space than the average cornfield.

but what would happen is that the world population would just go up.
we are still a species that breeds before we think.

hence the population--or at least, the birth rate-- still rising in lands that have perpetual famine.  and, yet another argument for eugenics.  or free farm labor.

the green revolution of the mid-twentieth century was about gowing more food
using man-made fertilizers, soil conservation techinques, and
other 'modern' farming practices.
the goal was to have no human starve,
to have all humans eat healthy and well.
what our species did instead, was breed more people.
more people alive and more people straving

this country isn't starving.  like, at all.  most estimates are that maybe a scant .2 to .5% are covered in concrete, leaving pretty much the rest for agriculture.  and, barring the wasteland that is the american west, this is about some of the most fertile land there is.  then of course, there are all the modern advances in farming techniques, such as vertical farming, which can be done pretty much downtown in a city.  techniques like this can double, triple, quadruple the amount of space available on a fraction of the land once needed to sow crops.


the only reason we aren't feeding the world right now is that there is no profit in it.

[lentower]

the average cornfield is the meat industry's pasture

i was talking about the entire planet, not just the US
... but ...
the rich part of the US isn't straving,
just the poor.  there is a lot of hunger in America

i have only glancing mentioned the lost of top soil problem

been a few years since i looked at this in detail,
but the trends have been to make it all worse

if you want your eyes opened
go study it yourself?
i'm not going to type a textbook in here ; - }

[Agonistes]

the average cornfield is the meat industry's pasture

i was talking about the entire planet, not just the US
... but ...
the rich part of the US isn't straving,
just the poor.  there is a lot of hunger in America

i have only glancing mentioned the lost of top soil problem

been a few years since i looked at this in detail,
but the trends have been to make it all worse

if you want your eyes opened
go study it yourself?
i'm not going to type a textbook in here ; - }

i don't know if you've ever seen the 'average' cornfield, len.  one has trouble accepting the amount of land visible.  it boggles the mind.  if you want your eyes opened, maybe get your stats from a source other than those who evangelize against meat production at all.

i have been reading/hearing about it my whole life, thanks.  agriculture affects me directly in more ways than you might imagine.  four generations of my family have been farmers of one sort or another, including but not limited to meat (which takes almost no land at all).  you need to get your news from actual farmers (i might have mentioned them; they are the guys being paid for not farming.  their land is doing nothing but 'resting').  and also, you have to be an idiot to starve in america.  the poorest of the poor is overweight in this country.  acquired diabetes is everywhere.  do you know any homeless people?  many of them are overweight.  any one of them could tell you where and how to get three square meals a day, also.  the dumpsters of even the cheapest fast food restaurant are crammed with food.

[lentower]

Ag

I've work on farms.
Farmers in the extended family, too.

I've seen the miles and miles of corn, soy, wheat, desert, salt water, etc.
as I criss-crossed the US and the world.

You shouldn't jump to conclusions on where someone's data is coming from.

The record here on the sbox shows I read the NY Times, and
a sampling of other news sources that try to do real journalism.

But there are other sources:
E.g. I have friends in research academia who have studied food and populations issues for the UN, etc.
Who have gotten my help proofing, checking computer systems, math analysis, etc.
How much of the real data has you analyzed/used?

But let's go back to the interesting factoid you offered:
Iowa could feed the world with corn.

Not true, but kinda close, if you want people to die slowly of
malnutrition.  
Our species needs a diet that includes nutrients other than calories:
essential amino and fatty acids, vitamins, minerals, phyto-nutrients, etc.
None of which you get from corn.

You need a lot more land to do that.

Corn is a great cash crop for agri-business.  It's a bad choice for the long term.
It uses up top soil and needs artificial fertilizers, GMO, etc to be profitable.

I've already said we had enough land to feed everyone alive, and then some,
if we could agree to use it to do so.

Cutting back factory production of meat is part of it, but not all of it.
From a system viewpoint, of maximizing food production, while
minimizing ecological impact, meat can be grown in traditional ways,
and be a once a week or so treat for those who want it,
not an every meal staple for the richest.

Too much of a start on the textbook.

[lentower]

Meat.

from mammals?
birds?
reptiles?
amphibians?
fish?

insects?
protozoas?
other non-chordates?

[lentower]

From everything.  


Smartarse. What?

but not nutrient quality protein from plants?

takes one to know one. Compliment?

[Agonistes]

Ag

I've work on farms.
Farmers in the extended family, too.

I've seen the miles and miles of corn, soy, wheat, desert, salt water, etc.
as I criss-crossed the US and the world.

You shouldn't jump to conclusions on where someone's data is coming from.

The record here on the sbox shows I read the NY Times, and
a sampling of other news sources that try to do real journalism.

But there are other sources:
E.g. I have friends in research academia who have studied food and populations issues for the UN, etc.
Who have gotten my help proofing, checking computer systems, math analysis, etc.
How much of the real data has you analyzed/used?

But let's go back to the interesting factoid you offered:
Iowa could feed the world with corn.

Not true, but kinda close, if you want people to die slowly of
malnutrition.  
Our species needs a diet that includes nutrients other than calories:
essential amino and fatty acids, vitamins, minerals, phyto-nutrients, etc.
None of which you get from corn.

You need a lot more land to do that.

Corn is a great cash crop for agri-business.  It's a bad choice for the long term.
It uses up top soil and needs artificial fertilizers, GMO, etc to be profitable.

I've already said we had enough land to feed everyone alive, and then some,
if we could agree to use it to do so.

Cutting back factory production of meat is part of it, but not all of it.
From a system viewpoint, of maximizing food production, while
minimizing ecological impact, meat can be grown in traditional ways,
and be a once a week or so treat for those who want it,
not an every meal staple for the richest.

Too much of a start on the textbook.

i'm aware corn can't feed the world (iowa could, however, feed the world for half a year if the world ate only corn.  this is iowa's statistic, not my 'factoid,' as you so condescendingly called it).  it's doing a good job of fucking up our diversity in nutrition here at home, isn't it.  but, i'm not shifting points just to win an argument, and my point was, meat production doesn't take farmland away from farm production.  maybe in the same state it does, but this is a fucking enormous country, in which you could build a spectacularly verdant vertical greenhouse right in the center of the desert.  i grant that you are biased against meat production at all by the fact that you don't eat it, which is fine, and your choice.  i'm delighted you are in such close council with the united nations on all this (a political entity we could all do without), but i'm not going to play whose data is most 'real' with you, either.  

[lentower]

the UN is large and diverse, and some parts of it like UNESCO and FAO do a lot of good

i'm biased against meat production that robs from the poor to feed the rich
(to stretch a metaphor) and harms the global eco-system

Iowa public relations has it's pluses and minuses

uncontrolled greed hurts the world alot.  feeds off and build ignorance, etc.

and putting down my arguments because I eat and live vegan
is a junior high school debating trick - beneath you

[Agonistes]

the UN is large and diverse, and some parts of it like UNESCO and FAO do a lot of good

i'm biased against meat production that robs from the poor to feed the rich
(to stretch a metaphor) and harms the global eco-system

Iowa public relations has it's pluses and minuses

uncontrolled greed hurts the world alot.  feeds off and build ignorance, etc.

and putting down my arguments because I eat and live vegan
is a junior high school debating trick - beneath you

iowa is what it is.  i hated living there, personally.  


i was never on a debating team.  also, i'm not putting down your arguments, is the thing.  i'm admitting you will see it slightly different from me because of your lifestyle, versus mine.  and, by pointing out that you probably have a bias towards eating less meat (why wouldn't you?), i am also pointing out my own bias in favor of meat, which is that if it came down to it, i would totally butcher any of you to survive.  in fact eating human meat is on my bucket list, but it probably won't happen.  the human body is a sewer, and i really don't know anyone i like well enough to actually consume, outside of a survival situation.

at any rate, arguments can be easily fitted for both ends.  hence, politics.

uncontrolled greed is deplorable, i think we agree on that.  however, i see nothing wrong with controlled greed, so long as it can remain inclusive of a group, and not individual.  

[CeeGBee]

So, just to make sure I'm caught up....

If I eat only Iowa corn, I'll die of diabetes, but I can feed that corn to cows, give them
antibiotics so they won't die from their shit diet, then I can eat those cows and get
cancer..... 

Right?

[Pope Totalfrog]

Because the lake district is just covered with bacon rashers.  Seriously, people think they're slipping on moss, but actually.  Bacon.

Bacon is a gateway meat.

[Agonistes]

So, just to make sure I'm caught up....

If I eat only Iowa corn, I'll die of diabetes, but I can feed that corn to cows, give them
antibiotics so they won't die from their shit diet, then I can eat those cows and get
cancer..... 

Right?

that's right, cee, the whole point of both our arguments was that you should only eat food that comes from iowa.  not everybody else.  just you.

[The Angel Raliel]

well we just need to grow lots more fungi.....preferably wild types that look similar to toxic ones just so every mealtime comes with a bit of a frisson

[lentower]

So, just to make sure I'm caught up....

If I eat only Iowa corn, I'll die of diabetes, but I can feed that corn to cows, give them
antibiotics so they won't die from their shit diet, then I can eat those cows and get
cancer..... 

Right?

that's right, cee, the whole point of both our arguments was that you should only eat food that comes from iowa.  not everybody else.  just you.

Ag

Can Iowa grow enough food to feed Cee?