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[caddy]

But then you have things that Obama did like the healthcare bill that passed.  Yeah it was great, but some of the clauses I don't exactly agree with, unless they've changed (like being forced to have healthcare by 2014 was it?  Or else after a certain time you get penalized?), and I'm also preeetty sure most doctors at this point are going to stop accepting insurance due to the bill, because they're pricks.  I think the one thing all Americans liked was that he shut down G-Bay (did it stay shut down?), and that the rest of the world seems to be on our side now that he's in office.

We have it in MA, if you make under 32k a year your insurance will be dirt cheap (under 100/month) over that amount you will need to get a subsidized private plan, which can be had for 150-300 depending on the level of coverage (co pays etc.) you want.

As to doctors not accepting insurance they will, nothing changes for them.  Some can choose not to accept the expanded Medicaid but if you have health insurance now nothing will change.  And all major medical facilities as well as most smaller ones will accept the expanded Medicaid.

See, at the moment I make about 10k a year, while my roommate will make maybe 15k a year with his job.  We're pretty damn poor, and make just enough to live off until we catch up on a whole lot of bills, and now we have to add car insurance to the equation.  We already pay for my school loans.  The math equates to us basically, at this point, paying out half our earning or more, which is not the situation we were in when we started.  If we have to add health insurance to that, even insurance that is under $100, and for EACH of us, that'd still break the bank.  I understand the circumstances behind it, but most of the cheap health insurances don't offer full coverage, so I'd be basically paying $60 or even a little more a MONTH for insurance I either won't really use, AND insurance that doesn't really cover a whole bunch.  I did the math with my job's health insurance, and if you pay that per month ($50), plus whatever you pay out of pocket, it's the same.  Maybe even more.  o_O'

Which is why I'm against forcing people to pay for health insurance.  Sure, make it cheaper, and regulate the insurance companies, I'm all for that!  But please don't force my hand.  I'm a fucking adult.

[J_Beck]

But then you have things that Obama did like the healthcare bill that passed.  Yeah it was great, but some of the clauses I don't exactly agree with, unless they've changed (like being forced to have healthcare by 2014 was it?  Or else after a certain time you get penalized?), and I'm also preeetty sure most doctors at this point are going to stop accepting insurance due to the bill, because they're pricks.  I think the one thing all Americans liked was that he shut down G-Bay (did it stay shut down?), and that the rest of the world seems to be on our side now that he's in office.

We have it in MA, if you make under 32k a year your insurance will be dirt cheap (under 100/month) over that amount you will need to get a subsidized private plan, which can be had for 150-300 depending on the level of coverage (co pays etc.) you want.

As to doctors not accepting insurance they will, nothing changes for them.  Some can choose not to accept the expanded Medicaid but if you have health insurance now nothing will change.  And all major medical facilities as well as most smaller ones will accept the expanded Medicaid.

See, at the moment I make about 10k a year, while my roommate will make maybe 15k a year with his job.  We're pretty damn poor, and make just enough to live off until we catch up on a whole lot of bills, and now we have to add car insurance to the equation.  We already pay for my school loans.  The math equates to us basically, at this point, paying out half our earning or more, which is not the situation we were in when we started.  If we have to add health insurance to that, even insurance that is under $100, and for EACH of us, that'd still break the bank.  I understand the circumstances behind it, but most of the cheap health insurances don't offer full coverage, so I'd be basically paying $60 or even a little more a MONTH for insurance I either won't really use, AND insurance that doesn't really cover a whole bunch.  I did the math with my job's health insurance, and if you pay that per month ($50), plus whatever you pay out of pocket, it's the same.  Maybe even more.  o_O'

Which is why I'm against forcing people to pay for health insurance.  Sure, make it cheaper, and regulate the insurance companies, I'm all for that!  But please don't force my hand.  I'm a fucking adult.

At 10k you are below the poverty line, your health insurance would be free, no copays, and prescriptions would be 3 dollars if you lived in MA.  My GP is at a major teaching hospital which has the benefit of me being able to be seen if I get sick usually 1-3 hours after I call (I first see a resident but then they bring in the doctor as a consult so no worries there) and I know they take Mass Health.

As to that last line that is a major issue, so say you don't have any insurance and need care, what to do?  The ER is free and many people use it as their GP at the average of 1,000 dollars per visit.  The hospital can't charge you due to your low income so that money comes from somewhere else......all the people with insurance and those electing to pay for procedures on their own.  Also if we throw healthy people like you into the pool it makes cheaper for everyone.  And in your current financial state as I said you pay nothing and if I recall correctly your roommate would pay between 20-40 a month.

A better way of thinking about it is like K-12 education, if you own property in a town you are paying for the school system even if you never have kids, thus the cost is spread out across more people and everyone can attend.

[caddy]

I am VERY well aware of emergency rooms, as that is how I tend to get things done these days.  I abuse it when I need it.

As for the rest, I still don't agree with the government forcing people to pay for healthcare.  As an adult, I pretty much shouldn't be forced to pay for anything unless I want to, especially when so many things we are forced to pay for are mostly luxuries.  Like car insurance.  I understand the dire need for car insurance, but I can't wrap my head around the fact that you cannot even get your tags for your car if you're not paying upwards of $60 a month for insurance.  You should be able to fix up your car, and then buy insurance when you decide the time is right, but then again I am a very new driver.

Also, I'm not very proud of myself for being that far below the poverty line, so I really don't see any advantage of throwing people like me into the mix who are healthy and poor.  Though I do think that hospital costs are outrageously expensive, and the hospitals, and not the people paying for the procedures, should start investing some monies into it.  Especially after what happened with Kaiser Pemanente a while ago.  Then again, that hospital is ten types of fucked up.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188997,00.html

[J_Beck]

I am VERY well aware of emergency rooms, as that is how I tend to get things done these days.  I abuse it when I need it.

As for the rest, I still don't agree with the government forcing people to pay for healthcare.  As an adult, I pretty much shouldn't be forced to pay for anything unless I want to, especially when so many things we are forced to pay for are mostly luxuries.  Like car insurance.  I understand the dire need for car insurance, but I can't wrap my head around the fact that you cannot even get your tags for your car if you're not paying upwards of $60 a month for insurance.  You should be able to fix up your car, and then buy insurance when you decide the time is right, but then again I am a very new driver.

Also, I'm not very proud of myself for being that far below the poverty line, so I really don't see any advantage of throwing people like me into the mix who are healthy and poor.  Though I do think that hospital costs are outrageously expensive, and the hospitals, and not the people paying for the procedures, should start investing some monies into it.  Especially after what happened with Kaiser Pemanente a while ago.  Then again, that hospital is ten types of fucked up.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188997,00.html

You are not forced to pay for car insurance since you don't need to have a car.

But to drive in most states you do need liability insurance since a car can cause all sorts of damage and many people can't pay all of it so that makes sense.  If you rear end me I should not have to pay my 500 dollar deductible since I would not be at fault and thus yours should cover it.  But you can decline collision/comprehensive.

Sorry about phrasing it that way, I'm too used to talking about this hypothetically.  But the issue with health care is lower prices and the mandate, you can't have one without the other.  Without the pool including healthy people costs will sky rocket, while even small payments which would be subsidized by the government for those above 32k (below go into an expanded Medicaid with small premiums for those closer to the limit).

As far as total cost to the government/system go it would probably be cheaper to have you enrolled in Mass Health than what you are current doing.  If a GP visit is 40-70 dollars you would have to go multiple times a month to even equal going to the ER once.  The government subsidizes hospitals so they are spending more on your care now than in 2-3 years when you would be eligible for the expanded Medicaid.

The issue is health care costs too much to not be paid by all, some sort of single payer or a mixed system like France or Germany with some tweaks would be a big improvement to what we have.  One of the reasons the story about the persons house being burned down and fire fighters watching is it goes back to a day before we offered such basic services as fire protection to everyone and it was opt in.

Fire departments, schools, health care, all are more affordable as a society if everyone is included in paying (who is able those making less are subsidized or do not pay in) when it is broken up it is more expensive for those who do pay, and there are major tragedies for those who do not.

[caddy]

Au contraire.  I live in an area where everything is spread out, and if I want to get to work and make money to pay for the many types of insurance the government wants to give me, then I actually DO need a car.  I did not need a car back in Los Angeles, because there was LA Metro and taxis.  It's a completely different ballgame here.  Also, that goes for people in many areas, even in cities, who have to find a job that's 1-2 hours away, because there is a lack of jobs (that will pay the bills and feed the kids) in their local area.  We live in a modern age, and we've pretty much augmented our area to suit that, so that things we may want/need are either five minutes away or two hours away.  Either way, these days you need a car, pretty much in the same way you need a stove or a fridge.  That's like saying, "Well, you don't really need a job, unless you want to eat, of course."

But I agree with the reasons you give for having insurance.  I didn't say the insurance itself was a bad thing, just that I think it's ridiculous that I have to pay for insurance before I can even pay for my tags.  And the insurance my honey DID have on his car got fucked up, and nearly cost his mother and father their insurance, because they'd been paying for it for him since he was jobless.  Now he's jobful, but we're sickeningly behind in everything.  Everything.

All of that said,

I'm aware of costs being cheaper when a large group is paying.  That's probably why in a dumbed down sense, they offer group rates on things like, say, health insurance!  It makes sense, but to tell you quite honestly...I maybe visit the emergency room once a year, and that's only in later times, due to my teeth (which I have officially found a dental office for).  Previously, I hadn't been to the hospital since...wait.  Before 2006, I hadn't been to a hospital since I was 16-years-old.  Might suck for things like check ups, but I've been checked out since, and I'm still found to be relatively healthy, even though I've been overweight all my life.

I think it would be great to have a system like they offer overseas, but from what I've heard, the taxes are still quite bad, but as you say if everybody pays for it, it still comes out cheaper.  I think I would actually be more comfortable with something like that coming out of my taxes, than having to set aside a separate bill for it.  It would take out the stress of having to pay so many bills for so many things that should be obvious as to why we should have them.

Like the fire department.  I think that was pretty much bullshit.  Lots and loads and tons of bullshit, though from another story I heard he forgot to pay that stupid fee.  From another story he abused the fire department in a previous fire that had happened in the year, and knew about the fee, and should have paid it then.  Either way, I'd hate to see something of mine go down in flames because I have to pay a fee.

But like I said, that fee should come out of taxes if it's needed by so many people.  I think my whole issue with paying these things out of pocket is the stress, and not even so much the money, actually.  Now that I think about it.

[caddy]

Oy.  And here I thought I hadn't written enough.  Sorry for the car rant.  The car has been a major, major sore spot for me right now, because it hates humans, I'm starting to believe.

[J_Beck]

Au contraire.  I live in an area where everything is spread out, and if I want to get to work and make money to pay for the many types of insurance the government wants to give me, then I actually DO need a car.  I did not need a car back in Los Angeles, because there was LA Metro and taxis.  It's a completely different ballgame here.  Also, that goes for people in many areas, even in cities, who have to find a job that's 1-2 hours away, because there is a lack of jobs (that will pay the bills and feed the kids) in their local area.  We live in a modern age, and we've pretty much augmented our area to suit that, so that things we may want/need are either five minutes away or two hours away.  Either way, these days you need a car, pretty much in the same way you need a stove or a fridge.  That's like saying, "Well, you don't really need a job, unless you want to eat, of course."

But I agree with the reasons you give for having insurance.  I didn't say the insurance itself was a bad thing, just that I think it's ridiculous that I have to pay for insurance before I can even pay for my tags.  And the insurance my honey DID have on his car got fucked up, and nearly cost his mother and father their insurance, because they'd been paying for it for him since he was jobless.  Now he's jobful, but we're sickeningly behind in everything.  Everything.

All of that said,

I'm aware of costs being cheaper when a large group is paying.  That's probably why in a dumbed down sense, they offer group rates on things like, say, health insurance!  It makes sense, but to tell you quite honestly...I maybe visit the emergency room once a year, and that's only in later times, due to my teeth (which I have officially found a dental office for).  Previously, I hadn't been to the hospital since...wait.  Before 2006, I hadn't been to a hospital since I was 16-years-old.  Might suck for things like check ups, but I've been checked out since, and I'm still found to be relatively healthy, even though I've been overweight all my life.

I think it would be great to have a system like they offer overseas, but from what I've heard, the taxes are still quite bad, but as you say if everybody pays for it, it still comes out cheaper.  I think I would actually be more comfortable with something like that coming out of my taxes, than having to set aside a separate bill for it.  It would take out the stress of having to pay so many bills for so many things that should be obvious as to why we should have them.

Like the fire department.  I think that was pretty much bullshit.  Lots and loads and tons of bullshit, though from another story I heard he forgot to pay that stupid fee.  From another story he abused the fire department in a previous fire that had happened in the year, and knew about the fee, and should have paid it then.  Either way, I'd hate to see something of mine go down in flames because I have to pay a fee.

But like I said, that fee should come out of taxes if it's needed by so many people.  I think my whole issue with paying these things out of pocket is the stress, and not even so much the money, actually.  Now that I think about it.

We actually end up paying more for less services in our health care plans here in America, the way I came up with that was looking at average tax burdens in those countries and then took ours and added insurance costs.

[CeeGBee]

...why not a clear demonstration that a lot of eligible voters recognize that the blanket ban is stupid?

What are we going to do when the heating oil runs out and we have no blankets?  Just get stoned and forget about it?

Group sex for warmth, of course.....  Sheesh, do I have to think of everything?

[YonderMtnGirl]

Ever look at who's anti? It's always, always, the grumpy old men, far right, moral "majority" and seems (to me) that it's the deep south ('cause thats where you see all those crazy huge crosses scattered through out the landscape) who have always enjoyed telling other people what to do and how to live their lives. "blah blah blah pot leads to herion blah blah blah" If they (the grumpy old far-right moral "majority") would just smoke a damn bowl, they would get it. There would be no more wars because *pulls on the piece*holds it in*blows it out*...*relaxed* ...that's why. My small two cents. (I actually had a really intelligent argument all typed up, but hit the freakin' esc key with my happy little fingers and that was that.)

[CeeGBee]

I suspect a lot of the anti- money is coming from people who are currently making a nice profit
providing illegal weed.  Recent experience has demonstrated that legalization makes pot farmers
into, well, farmers...  Have you looked at the profit-margin for green beans lately?

I also saw an expose piece a while back showing how much private-prison companies are spending
to keep it illegal.  Again, legalization would cut corporate profits.

[YonderMtnGirl]

"...they (the pharmaceutical companies) don't want us to grow our own medicine..." Joe Rogan