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[Kenny Wisdom]

I'm not offended by just this venture, I'm getting pretty damned pissed off at nearly every money making venture that frequents these pages so regularly, which to my simple mind ostensibly amounts to little more than "send me ridiculous amounts of money for very little back" but "it's alright dahlinks we'll call it art and you can't ever object to that".

I much preferred it when it was about the art.

I'd also hazard a guess that in commercial terms, 2000 x  $1 benefactors on your college database is better than 4 x $500 fat lazy bourgeois gits.

It's all the fucking language. "Donate, pledge, send us your money to bring our creative visions to life, buy, consume" do all of that shit before we do ours. Fucking get a life. Put on fucking Godot or something.

Jeez, you can do that with just a twig and a few leaves. I'm sure even you creative sparks can sort that shit out.

[CeeGBee]

The key difference being that the bourgeois gits have the $500 to spare....


Get $500 each from four people with "disposable income" to support someone else's art project...

It's the opposite side of the coin for an artist who routinely plays free shows for whoever
shows up, with the added bonus of, say, football or simulated medieval warfare....

I see what it is that has everyone in a tizzy here, but I can't agree with the degree of offense people
seem to feel.  That said, after the novelty wears off, so does the cash value of stunts like this.


Of course, now they've cut off sales to the b-g's now anyway, so I hope they can move 100 t-shirts... 
Doesn't seem an unreasonable target.

[theseeker]

What if someone saved up for months to get a $500 vip thingy? Don't assume that everyone who gives money to a favorite artist is lazy... o.o

[beth of all trades]

i get the ''let's support the art'' but i think the ''cool'' things are being restricted more and more to uber-rich fans.

This is a totally valid concern, and something I've been thinking about for a while.  I'm not sure how to balance the very real financial concerns of doing business in 2001 while still keeping punk cabaret and all its trappings as egalitarian as possible.  I am open to suggestions.

It's all the fucking language. "Donate, pledge, send us your money to bring our creative visions to life, buy, consume" do all of that shit before we do ours.

I understand what you're saying, both as a consumer and as a creator.  It's a sticky situation. 

As an artist, I am uncomfortable having "patrons" because a patron is different than a customer.  A customer gives you money in exchange for A Thing that presumably has value.  A patron gives you money to fund art that hasn't been made yet in exchange for... ?  That's the tricky part.  It's not always a clear transaction.  After trial and error, I've found that I prefer to create things before money enters the picture, rather than funding art that hasn't been made yet via pre-order or patronage.  But, I'm an artist with a day job, so I have the luxury to choose.

Here's a question for you, Kenny (and anyone else, actually):  is it the frequency of the ask that turns you off?  Do you have the same negative emotional reaction to, say, a musician whose day job won't cover recording costs using Kickstarter to fund an EP?  Or an independent filmmaker who needs start-up cash to hire a crew?  What if the art simply won't get made without the help?

A few friends (and Kayla) have held Kickstarters in the past six months or so, and I pledged even though I'm definitely not wealthy because it was a way to support art that I truly believe in.  My $50 isn't much, but combine it with someone else's $100 and a few someone's $5s and it adds up, you know?

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the issue is complicated from all sides.  I think that crowdsourced funding fills a real need, but that since it's a relatively new concept, people are still figuring out how to use it well. 

All of these are my own opinions as an artist and a human, not as a member of Team AFP. 

[On the off chance that a disclaimer is required: I have some limited mod-authority so that I can eradicate spambot posts.
I am not in close communication with AFP or her 'inner circle', and my views and opinions are entirely my own.]

I was in close communication with your mom's inner circle last night.  Congrats on the modding... I couldn't think of a better fellow to inflict it on.

V.I.P. = very important person.


............because you paid for it.

Go to a fundraiser for ((insert charity of your choice)) and you can bet that the V.I.P.s will all be major donors or celebrities.  V.I.P.s pay for the privilege, it's the nature of the beast. 

What if someone saved up for months to get a $500 vip thingy? Don't assume that everyone who gives money to a favorite artist is lazy... o.o

That... isn't the point that anyone's making.  The criticisms are that the huge packages are offered at all--- whether it's a week's allowance or a month's grocery money to the person buying it is immaterial. 

[CeeGBee]

[On the off chance that a disclaimer is required: I have some limited mod-authority so that I can eradicate spambot posts.
I am not in close communication with AFP or her 'inner circle', and my views and opinions are entirely my own.]

I was in close communication with your mom's inner circle last night.  Congrats on the modding... I couldn't think of a better fellow to inflict it on.

You didn't give this woman

any money did you?  She's a total fraud. 

[Pope Totalfrog]

I understand what you're saying, both as a consumer and as a creator.  It's a sticky situation. 

As an artist, I am uncomfortable having "patrons" because a patron is different than a customer.  A customer gives you money in exchange for A Thing that presumably has value.  A patron gives you money to fund art that hasn't been made yet in exchange for... ?  That's the tricky part.  It's not always a clear transaction.  After trial and error, I've found that I prefer to create things before money enters the picture, rather than funding art that hasn't been made yet via pre-order or patronage.  But, I'm an artist with a day job, so I have the luxury to choose.

Here's a question for you, Kenny (and anyone else, actually):  is it the frequency of the ask that turns you off?  Do you have the same negative emotional reaction to, say, a musician whose day job won't cover recording costs using Kickstarter to fund an EP?  Or an independent filmmaker who needs start-up cash to hire a crew?  What if the art simply won't get made without the help?

A few friends (and Kayla) have held Kickstarters in the past six months or so, and I pledged even though I'm definitely not wealthy because it was a way to support art that I truly believe in.  My $50 isn't much, but combine it with someone else's $100 and a few someone's $5s and it adds up, you know?

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the issue is complicated from all sides.  I think that crowdsourced funding fills a real need, but that since it's a relatively new concept, people are still figuring out how to use it well. 

All of these are my own opinions as an artist and a human, not as a member of Team AFP. 

I think Kickstarter is brilliant. It's a shame no one thought of it sooner.

I think there is a difference between funding a project (like Kayla's EP) and funding a lifestyle.

I know that on some level the two are connected but to me asking people to buy your junk to pay your rent is a lot different to asking people to support your Kickstarter to help you create something.

[Agonistes]

V.I.P. = very important person.


............because you paid for it.

Go to a fundraiser for ((insert charity of your choice)) and you can bet that the V.I.P.s will all be major donors or celebrities.  V.I.P.s pay for the privilege, it's the nature of the beast.  

see, you're right....i have seen the beast in action, a lot.  i do a lot of fundraising, actually, i got tricked onto a board, i'm on a board.  i did everything i could to not be in charge of my section, the person who was in charge fucked off, and now it's all me.  while it is true that there are VIP sections almost every where you go (since the people i'm working with lately consider themselves...let's say 'highbrow'), it comes, in my case, in the form of patrons and 'gift clubs' like with set amounts and, like that.  and i know you believe me when i insist that you run out of ways to do it differently, and i have little to no patience with schmoozing.  the largest single donation i've ever been able to bring in was a piddling five k, and they're trying to raise like two million, or something unbelievable.  i did manage to get a bunch of violins donated, though, and some cellos.  go me.

anyway i do much better with doing letterhead doodles and weird stuff nobody sees so that other people can do stuff for audiences, and i can present the board with oodles of ticket money (or hang my head and say i didn't make it all back, as has also happened), and so on.  the public frustrates me and also, i pretty much hate all humans at one point or another for real or arbitrary reasons, and i realize my posts reflect that in possibly more critical statements than i intend.

i have to agree with kennywisdom in the respect that being constantly reminded of....well, even cool shit going on that i just can't afford right now, sometimes......is hard.  nobody has any money right now.  even the richest family i know, who were pretty damn rich, took it up the ass recently with the stock thing.  i myself am probably out of stocks forever, circa 2005; you might as well gamble...but that's neither here nor there.  i'm keeping the shop open by dropping a fourth of what i should be charging for just about everything, and if a tattoo shop isn't the perfect model for what is up with the economy, i don't know what is.  sometimes it's even frustrating to hear about ninja gigs, free as they are, knowing i will not be anywhere near one probably ever, and if i am, i will probably be working on something for somebody for free and wont be able to go.  i feel like i've put out a lot of negativity lately, and not being an overly negative person, it bothers me, especially because i'm pretty much dying to talk to the team itself about what's going on with this kind of business.  i want to learn from it, both what works and what doesn't.  it fascinates the hell out of me, and for more reasons than i care to go into.  and, honestly, i want stuff explained, too, because a lot of times something looks like it is one way from what we see, and it's really totally another, and i am pretty sure i often say stupid shit by way of suggestions or criticism, and i don't even know the whole story, which means i am essentially talking out my ass, and i have no talent for that.  i'd like those points of view.  even though i understand you guys are more busy doing than talking about, and i know it's a lot to ask that the posting/discussion level increase when there is real, tangible shit to do.

i don't really know a solution to the VIP dilemma.  i try, when it's up to me, to limit the VIP thing to people who participate and volunteer (such as talent) but shy away from the actual patronage.....i let the chairfolk deal with all that, and just try to cover up the tattoos when they prop me up near the theater table, if i have to actually attend something.

[Kenny Wisdom]

Here's a question for you, Kenny (and anyone else, actually):  is it the frequency of the ask that turns you off?  Do you have the same negative emotional reaction to, say, a musician whose day job won't cover recording costs using Kickstarter to fund an EP?  Or an independent filmmaker who needs start-up cash to hire a crew?  What if the art simply won't get made without the help?

Good question. Gut reaction is it's the frequency. Everytime I open up this board it seems beseiged with talk about the money and the dollah. And I know that's hardly even demonstrable, if you were to start pinning down and ask for examples. I guess it's a sign of the times, but it just seems that money talk is the beginning, the middle and the end. Capitalist art. When I did economics, I was told by the lefties that there are other ways...

[lentower]

Here's a question for you, Kenny (and anyone else, actually):  is it the frequency of the ask that turns you off?  Do you have the same negative emotional reaction to, say, a musician whose day job won't cover recording costs using Kickstarter to fund an EP?  Or an independent filmmaker who needs start-up cash to hire a crew?  What if the art simply won't get made without the help?

Good question. Gut reaction is it's the frequency. Everytime I open up this board it seems beseiged with talk about the money and the dollah. And I know that's hardly even demonstrable, if you were to start pinning down and ask for examples. I guess it's a sign of the times, but it just seems that money talk is the beginning, the middle and the end. Capitalist art. When I did economics, I was told by the lefties that there are other ways...

Kenny:

I don't see this board swamped with the discussion of
money and how artists can make it.
May be that I'm reading different threads,
or I'm mostly passing it by,
the way I do billboards, ads, and spam.

For me, this board is still about hanging out with friends,
making new friends, discussion and sharing the d.dolls
in particular, and everything else in general.

[lentower]

Most of the artists I know have "day" jobs
to pay the bills, buy the drinks/shows/parties, etc.
As well as supplies and equipment to make their art.

A few, e.g. amanda, make their living, pay all their bills,
through their art.

A very few, become rich.
This is often as much curse as blessing,
if not more curse.

[lentower]

There are ways to meet amanda,
and even get to spend some time with her,
beyond trading a donation for her presence at a party,
or personalized contact as part of a "VIP" package off of
Post War Trade.

Meet-n-greets, providing food or lodging,
being an artist or musician she wants to collaborate
with, etc.  Should be obvious to anyone who has read her
blog/tweets/e-mails for a while.

Perhaps less obvious, is doing something she find novel or
unusual, but interesting.  
{PS: this applies to food and lodging, etc., as well ; - }

[Agonistes]

len, i think the only problem with any artist, really, but most especially the ones whose art depends in part on their personal charisma, lies in the potential for getting rich.  some people just can't handle it, and from observation alone it seems the physically creative (i.e. the artists you look at; musicians, actors, performers as opposed to the visual art people) are the most vulnerable to being screwed up the most by wealth.

i don't begrudge amanda making a shitload of money.  i don't ever imagine her living in a granite palace like prince does or a zillion-dollar condo like elton john or anything because she doesn't seem to be that kind of person; even with forty million dollars in her pocket i think she would still hug her fans, and be as approachable as was prudent to be.  i root for her to hit on the formula that will automatically heap the coffers of the machine, though, with enough left over for her to coast on; that's really all any artist wants, i think; for the business part to fund itself well enough to not have to worry about it, but instead let the artist focus on making what they are compelled to make.

probably why i am so critical of the process, actually; i have really high hopes for it to succeed...partly because the success of ANY artist kind of is important to ALL artists.  let's face it, we charge what we do for what we do because not everybody can do it (and also because a lot of us are incapable of doing anything else worthwhile, like myself).  there is a huge part of art for sale that is 100% sham, smoke and mirrors, because it's riding solely on whether or not it tickles folks.  an artist has to be able to manipulate reality to create tangible product out of basically thin air, or a rock, or whatever.  in the end people are paying to watch you defy nature with a straight line.  or a perfect circle, whichever is philosophically more effective a metaphor; i know there are straight lines in nature.

the other very real problem is the economy being in the toilet.  whenever this happens, art is the first thing to take a solid punch, and affordable art is the first to go; music (because you can now get it for free, not that any shadowboxer would ever, ever do such a thing the longest day they lived), tattoos, movies, mid-level investment-grade art, musical instrument sales, even.  i know every company that even touches art in my area of the country is hurting right now; sales are down and the general customer attitude is moody as hell, bordering on surly.  surly, i tell you.

[lentower]

i don't begrudge amanda making a shitload of money.  i don't ever imagine her living in a granite palace like prince does or a zillion-dollar condo like elton john or anything because she doesn't seem to be that kind of person; even with forty million dollars in her pocket i think she would still hug her fans, and be as approachable as was prudent to be.  i root for her to hit on the formula that will automatically heap the coffers of the machine, though, with enough left over for her to coast on; that's really all any artist wants, i think; for the business part to fund itself well enough to not have to worry about it, but instead let the artist focus on making what they are compelled to make.

I have no problem with any artist legally making money for their art.

From what I can see,
Amanda is making a comfortable living,
but isn't getting rich.
(I certainly haven't seen her books,
or discussed this with anyone who would know)
Part of why is that she puts money back into the art.

[lentower]

probably why i am so critical of the process, actually; i have really high hopes for it to succeed...partly because the success of ANY artist kind of is important to ALL artists.  let's face it, we charge what we do for what we do because not everybody can do it (and also because a lot of us are incapable of doing anything else worthwhile, like myself).  there is a huge part of art for sale that is 100% sham, smoke and mirrors, because it's riding solely on whether or not it tickles folks.  an artist has to be able to manipulate reality to create tangible product out of basically thin air, or a rock, or whatever.  in the end people are paying to watch you defy nature with a straight line.  or a perfect circle, whichever is philosophically more effective a metaphor; i know there are straight lines in nature.

Most people are capable of creating art.
Many do.
Some want to make their living at it.

To me, in the end people are paying to see some art,
and even more people to experience 'no-pay' art,
for how it touches them,
and for the wide diversity of ways of doing that.

[CeeGBee]

Here's a question for you, Kenny (and anyone else, actually):  is it the frequency of the ask that turns you off?  Do you have the same negative emotional reaction to, say, a musician whose day job won't cover recording costs using Kickstarter to fund an EP?  Or an independent filmmaker who needs start-up cash to hire a crew?  What if the art simply won't get made without the help?

Good question. Gut reaction is it's the frequency. Everytime I open up this board it seems beseiged with talk about the money and the dollah. And I know that's hardly even demonstrable, if you were to start pinning down and ask for examples. I guess it's a sign of the times, but it just seems that money talk is the beginning, the middle and the end. Capitalist art. When I did economics, I was told by the lefties that there are other ways...

There may also be a question of perception...

I have NOT done the research to support this, but what I seem to recall is that when
Amanda asks for something for Amanda, it's food or a place to crash when she plays a
show in your town.

On the other hand, there are occasional (frequent?) requests for money...   
 
...to support underfunded projects by The Red Paintings, Zoe and/or Kim B., Kayla O., Lance H, Tristan A.,
The Eventworks Progress Festival, VH1 "Save The Music" &c &c &c