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[theseeker]

except that the Chernobyl reactor and Fukushima reactors are of entirely different designs.

Agreed completely. They don't even talk about in that article.

That doesn't mean radiation has no side effects, or that the Japanese government's going to tell everyone what's up...

[CeeGBee]

len, not one "fact" that you've mentioned in this thread has had any supporting evidence presented by you, which means either:

1. You're too lazy to post links, which makes for bad debate or presentation.
2. You're unable to find supporting links, which means you're voicing unsubstantiated statements (i.e. opinions), which makes for bad debate or presentation.

argument ad hominem...  Logically invalid, and somewhat rude.....
Let's try to keep the name-calling and similar flaming to a minimum, please?
[Damn...  Sorry: once again, I am not 'that kind' of mod, and the appeal
for civility is that of a normal user, with no force in law.]

Read and Learn, please.

Most informative.  I'd assumed most of this material in a general sense, but it's nice
to have actual factual material to back up optimistic assumptions.

[lentower]

len, not one "fact" that you've mentioned in this thread has had any supporting evidence presented by you, which means either:

1. You're too lazy to post links, which makes for bad debate or presentation.
2. You're unable to find supporting links, which means you're voicing unsubstantiated statements (i.e. opinions), which makes for bad debate or presentation.

argument ad hominem...  Logically invalid, and somewhat rude.....
Let's try to keep the name-calling and similar flaming to a minimum, please?
[Damn...  Sorry: once again, I am not 'that kind' of mod, and the appeal
for civility is that of a normal user, with no force in law.]

ftr, Cee has been a proponent of civility on this board, since before I joined it.

Read and Learn, please.

Most informative.  I'd assumed most of this material in a general sense, but it's nice
to have actual factual material to back up optimistic assumptions.l

yes, this reactor design is different from Chernobyl.
but it doesn't matter much.

more when I have some time.

[lentower]

btw, for those intrigued by this technology,
you might want to look into thorium reactors,
compared to other research designs

for reasons,
that have more to do with lobbying,
they have yet to go into commercial use

[Agonistes]

i for one would be fascinated to read something by proponents of alternative power sources other than nuclear, and what their objection to nuclear power is (and why they assume one plant is the same as another).







shhhh, cee, calm down.....there has been no name-calling.  adjectives are not names.  frustration is not the same as actual persecution.

[CeeGBee]

i for one would be fascinated to read something by proponents of alternative power sources other than nuclear, and what their objection to nuclear power is (and why they assume one plant is the same as another).

Well, they do have some similarities...  if you crack open the fuel containment of virtually any nuke plant,
very bad things can happen.  Plutonium (present in the Japanese reactors, not at Chernobyl) burns pretty
much immediately when exposed to oxygen, creating spectacularly toxic smoke... There are safer plants
and less-safe, but all have the risk of very very very bad if a number of everyday sort of things just happen
to go wrong all at the same time - imagine if your house would explode if it ever ocurred that you had
a blown fuse, backed-up drain, and locked-up computer at the same time.

That said, historically, nukes are safe.  The systems that would have to glitch to create a worst-case are
massively redundant, and there are lots of fail-safes, and every time something happens like this Fukushima
business, or 3MI, or Chernobyl, or the ones most people don't hear about, they learn more about what can
go wrong and how to keep it from happening.

shhhh, cee, calm down.....there has been no name-calling.  adjectives are not names.  frustration is not the same as actual persecution.

Sorry, ah tend to forget that some of our fellows heah are (pardon the phrase) yankees,
and westerners and such, and occasionally use less-civil language in civil discussion.

[Agonistes]

i for one would be fascinated to read something by proponents of alternative power sources other than nuclear, and what their objection to nuclear power is (and why they assume one plant is the same as another).

Well, they do have some similarities...  if you crack open the fuel containment of virtually any nuke plant,
very bad things can happen.  Plutonium (present in the Japanese reactors, not at Chernobyl) burns pretty
much immediately when exposed to oxygen, creating spectacularly toxic smoke... There are safer plants
and less-safe, but all have the risk of very very very bad if a number of everyday sort of things just happen
to go wrong all at the same time - imagine if your house would explode if it ever ocurred that you had
a blown fuse, backed-up drain, and locked-up computer at the same time.

That said, historically, nukes are safe.  The systems that would have to glitch to create a worst-case are
massively redundant, and there are lots of fail-safes, and every time something happens like this Fukushima
business, or 3MI, or Chernobyl, or the ones most people don't hear about, they learn more about what can
go wrong and how to keep it from happening.

i get what went wrong.  and i know of at least one american nuclear power plant that hasn't reported a huge geiger-counter reading reading in a corner of a locker room, or something, that took something like ten years to clean up.  i don't know any numbers, but it wasn't something you want to carry home stuck to your collar.

i'm really, in the instance of my own ass, more concerned about the chemical weapons incinerator nearby (and inclinations some local yahoos have found that hey, it might be a source of power!).  because conceivably, if they do find a way to power this strip of land with the wretched thing, my computer could lock up and cause ww2 to get broken open and spill out everywhere.  yes, ww2, they're still disposing of leaky canisters of mustard gas.  they havent even gotten to the vietnam junk.  it's been rumored since i was a child that the depot has drums of that stuff stored underground--within ten miles of my damn house.

hey, i wonder if the incinerator and chemical weapons storage is built to survive a worst case scenario disaster?

shhhh, cee, calm down.....there has been no name-calling.  adjectives are not names.  frustration is not the same as actual persecution.

Sorry, ah tend to forget that some of our fellows heah are (pardon the phrase) yankees,
and westerners and such, and occasionally use less-civil language in civil discussion.

i knows it.  it's been a culture shock since i got here.  the internet, i mean.  certain unexplainable civilities you take for granted just don't exist on the interwebs.  nice job whipping out the latin, however.

[CeeGBee]

Do y'all have any stuff from THE War (War of Northern Agression, Regional Unpleasantness, whatever)
in your neck o' the woods? Every few years, somone here digs up an unexploded shell... The last guy
tried to use a band-saw to cut open a 10" mortar shell - blew off both his legs, one arm, bled out before
the rescue squad got there...  and dropped a large chunk of jagged iron through his neighbors' roof.
Granted, that stuff is all just black powder...  If you want ancient unstable chemical weapons, you
should go to Belgium, where I understand people still routinely plow up WW1 munitions, both explosive
and chemical of various sorts... A little light reading, if the subject interests you....


...and of course, there's also "Anthrax Island" off Scotland...
They say it's safe, but I think I shall leave it off my itinerary should I ever manage to visit Scotland.

[lentower]

len, not one "fact" that you've mentioned in this thread has had any supporting evidence presented by you, which means either:

1. You're too lazy to post links, which makes for bad debate or presentation.
2. You're unable to find supporting links, which means you're voicing unsubstantiated statements (i.e. opinions), which makes for bad debate or presentation.

argument ad hominem...  Logically invalid, and somewhat rude.....
Let's try to keep the name-calling and similar flaming to a minimum, please?
[Damn...  Sorry: once again, I am not 'that kind' of mod, and the appeal
for civility is that of a normal user, with no force in law.]

ftr, Cee has been a proponent of civility on this board, since before I joined it.

N.U.

Cee is right: "argument ad hominem...  Logically invalid, and somewhat rude....."

also some what arrogant:
no one will ever tell me how to post to this board,
or how to make my arguments here,
though I see the wisdom in
http://www.theshadowbox.net/forum/index.php?topic=12409.0
and respect it

also some what narrow minded:
there are many, many reasons why i or someone else
might choose to not do things your way,
beyond those you state

how i spend my time is my choice

how i invest my time is my choice

not yours

previous posts of yours in this thread about me,
if read literally, has you putting "words in my mouth"
stating that i believe things, I haven't said

Agonistes may be right, and your behavior is due
to frustration

what ever the reason for your behavior,
it is NOT constructive


i realize,
that what i do not post may not change your mind,
etc.

but i have found in almost 62 years of life,
that people who demand that you play by their rules
often aren't open to other's point of views

[Agonistes]

Do y'all have any stuff from THE War (War of Northern Agression, Regional Unpleasantness, whatever)
in your neck o' the woods? Every few years, somone here digs up an unexploded shell... The last guy
tried to use a band-saw to cut open a 10" mortar shell - blew off both his legs, one arm, bled out before
the rescue squad got there...  and dropped a large chunk of jagged iron through his neighbors' roof.
Granted, that stuff is all just black powder...  If you want ancient unstable chemical weapons, you
should go to Belgium, where I understand people still routinely plow up WW1 munitions, both explosive
and chemical of various sorts... A little light reading, if the subject interests you....


...and of course, there's also "Anthrax Island" off Scotland...
They say it's safe, but I think I shall leave it off my itinerary should I ever manage to visit Scotland.

not long ago i visited a battlefield near atmore that was as yet un-forensic-ed.  it seems nowadays they can trace every single bullet back to the rifle it came from, almost to the name of every soldier who fired, and how many times.  you're allowed to clamber about on the breastworks, but no digging, and no carrying away anything interesting you see lying around.

there were also a few areas we couldn't go into because of possible ordinance.  i was fine with that; it was godawful hot.

honestly, ill probably skip the reading.  shit we leave lying around tends to get redundant.  at least no one's come up with the bright idea of jettisoning dangerous things into space, who knows who we will piss off then.

[lentower]

Do y'all have any stuff from THE War (War of Northern Agression, Regional Unpleasantness, whatever)
in your neck o' the woods? Every few years, somone here digs up an unexploded shell... The last guy
tried to use a band-saw to cut open a 10" mortar shell - blew off both his legs, one arm, bled out before
the rescue squad got there...  and dropped a large chunk of jagged iron through his neighbors' roof.
Granted, that stuff is all just black powder...  If you want ancient unstable chemical weapons, you
should go to Belgium, where I understand people still routinely plow up WW1 munitions, both explosive
and chemical of various sorts... A little light reading, if the subject interests you....


...and of course, there's also "Anthrax Island" off Scotland...
They say it's safe, but I think I shall leave it off my itinerary should I ever manage to visit Scotland.

it's good to have a southern gentleman on the board

in this vein, go take
POLL: How close to a nuclear reactor are you willing to live?

[lentower]

just came across my twitter:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-23/fukushima-engineer-says-he-covered-up-flaw-at-shut-reactor.html

of course, this incident needs more investigation,

but do you really believe this kind of coverup and cutting corners on safety
hasn't happen, often enough,
with nuclear reactor builds and operation?

[show me]

It seems like everything has stabilized now.  No more 24 hour streaming news on tv about the plant.

[Agonistes]

just came across my twitter:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-23/fukushima-engineer-says-he-covered-up-flaw-at-shut-reactor.html

of course, this incident needs more investigation,

but do you really believe this kind of coverup and cutting corners on safety
hasn't happen, often enough,
with nuclear reactor builds and operation?

i'd be willing to bet money it's happened more than a few times in america.  of course, this is a country entirely built by the lowest bidder.

[The Angel Raliel]

on the subject of weapons establishments....there is a large chunk of Salisbury plain in Wiltshire that is home to our wonderful biological weapons and research establishment...Portham Down over the decades all sorts of nasties have escaped from there and been quietly hushed up....green monkey disease (human strain)being but one