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[imaginary friend]

bye-bye, douchebag.

#@!

[CeeGBee]

Srsly, good riddance.   

[Pope Totalfrog]

I never thought I'd be happy to hear someone had been killed. I was this time though.

[Shock G]

[Savannah]

they should have judged him before the very eyes of the families of the victims of 9.11 and war, also they should have executed him before the eyes of the same crowd. anyway, an asshole who caused such violence and enmity has been killed, the world is not less dangereous but at least less dirty.

[lentower]

i'm always sadden to see a person die.

the way this was done will NOT help our relation with Pakistan,
and does nothing to cure the underlying issues that makes people terrorists.
like the saudi royal family.

[lentower]

they should have judged him before the very eyes of the families of the victims of 9.11 and war, also they should have executed him before the eyes of the same crowd. anyway, an asshole who caused such violence and enmity has been killed, the world is not less dangereous but at least less dirty.

The US Special Foreces are good,
but the odds of them getting anyone in that compound
out alive were small.

Also,
many of them would have committed suicide rather than be captured.
Possible, some did.

And getting Pakistan to extradite them to the US,
would have been interesting.

[The Angel Raliel]

he will now be used as an excuse and a reason for yet more killings on both sides....to celebrate this makes us the same as the extremists

[Pope Totalfrog]

he will now be used as an excuse and a reason for yet more killings on both sides....to celebrate this makes us the same as the extremists

There is no winning this "war". Both sides think they are on a mission from God. Can't get much more misguided than that.

Still not sad that he's dead but you and Len are right. This won't change anything and for a while it could even make things worse. It would have been smarter to take him alive. At least then he wouldn't be seen as a martyr.

[Shock G]

i'm always sadden to see a person die.

the way this was done will NOT help our relation with Pakistan,
and does nothing to cure the underlying issues that makes people terrorists.
like the saudi royal family.

?

If there was one US action in Pakistan to not get the people pissed this would be it, Osama is accepted around the world as someone who directly attacked America.  Drone strikes or intel operatives when discovered cause issues but this will be nothing but a blip and could be welcome in Pakistan, remember Al Queda has close ties to the Pakistani Taliban who have killed countless civilians and tried to take over the whole country just a little while back.

And people now know they don't need to be terrorists to take down a government like the royal family, for proof they can look to the West at Tunisia, Egypt, or to their southern border with Yemen.

[Shock G]

he will now be used as an excuse and a reason for yet more killings on both sides....to celebrate this makes us the same as the extremists

There is no winning this "war". Both sides think they are on a mission from God. Can't get much more misguided than that.

Still not sad that he's dead but you and Len are right. This won't change anything and for a while it could even make things worse. It would have been smarter to take him alive. At least then he wouldn't be seen as a martyr.

It gives the US an excuse to get out of Afghanistan, while our military's objectives are not over the one given to the populace is.  Remember we went in to bring those who committed the terrorist acts on 9/11 to justice and while you can say there are still terrorists there Bin Laden was the big guy and a much lighter footprint with actions like drone strikes and special forces instead of fire bases and nation building would be a lot more realistic.  Simply you can not win against the Afgahnis due to the terrain and their unwillingness to give up.  If anyone has netflix I highly recommend watching Restrepo and then a film based on the Russian experience 9th Company.  While we are not as brutal to the populace and the reasons are different the actual fighting for at least part of the war is the same and just as seemingly useless.

The Muslim world is changing and non-extremist youth lead revolutions are the future.  The only reason it is not happening in Saudi Arabia is the government just literally bought out the people giving a big chunk of money to all of their citizens.  But Syria is about to go, Libya is about to go, Iran is just waiting for another big rally cry to unify as they are still having demonstrations, Bahrain is about to go, there is talk in Jordan (though there it will likely be a smooth longer term transition).  The Hamas's and Hezbollahs are not the driving force in the region any more.

[The Angel Raliel]

basically a figurehead has been killed ..a figurehead who represents a group that see the only way of dealing with what they see as wrong is violence...we have just excused and justified their next terrorist actions

[Shock G]

basically a figurehead has been killed ..a figurehead who represents a group that see the only way of dealing with what they see as wrong is violence...we have just excused and justified their next terrorist actions

So your solution is?

[The Angel Raliel]

basically a figurehead has been killed ..a figurehead who represents a group that see the only way of dealing with what they see as wrong is violence...we have just excused and justified their next terrorist actions

[The Angel Raliel]

I do not have a solution...however the active encouragement of extremist thinking on either side is counter-productive....to the people who are turned to extremism this will cause them to decide against us....the west has to prove to the world it is moral and civilised all actions done in consideration not anger and a spirit of vengeance....

[Shock G]

I do not have a solution...however the active encouragement of extremist thinking on either side is counter-productive....to the people who are turned to extremism this will cause them to decide against us....the west has to prove to the world it is moral and civilised all actions done in consideration not anger and a spirit of vengeance....

Taking out (dead or alive) someone who deliberately killed thousands of civilians  is not an "extremist" move, let us take this on a small scale and someone killed a single person even and was held up in a shed in the middle of the woods hiding.  The police find him and move in, he fires and they take him out, is that an extremist move?

And how will "this" turn them against us?  Drone strikes could and do when they kill civilians as could other bombings, but here we went in without collateral damage and got a target that basically the whole world would agree we have a right to go after.  And as I mentioned before Bin Laden's methods are losing the war of ideas, this could do more to take them out of the picture.

[The Angel Raliel]

no...but there was obviously the choice of an open arrest conducted with muslim authorities....pictures of americans celebrating in the streets will send the message to muslim extremists that we  (the west)are blood thirsty murderers with no right to life....remember from their perspective we are an evil to be combated at any cost...the only way we can convince any of them otherwise is by NOT behaving like their propaganda would have them believe

[Shock G]

no...but there was obviously the choice of an open arrest conducted with muslim authorities....pictures of americans celebrating in the streets will send the message to muslim extremists that we  (the west)are blood thirsty murderers with no right to life....remember from their perspective we are an evil to be combated at any cost...the only way we can convince any of them otherwise is by NOT behaving like their propaganda would have them believe

 

I'm sorry but have to use that smiley in response due to the fact that there is a lot of suspicion that the ISI has been getting information to Bin Laden (remember that they were active supporters of the Taliban) so simply the part in bold is not a realistic option, we missed him once and to blow it again that way would not be acceptable.  And people celebrated after we dropped the bomb on Japan not for the deaths of the Japanese but for what it meant, this was a big victory in our war which has been a bloody stalemate in that region for years now.  It also corrected a major failure we had letting Bin Laden escape from Tora Bora.  The fact that we went in to extract him with special forces instead of just bombing the place to limit the number of casualties shows we do respect life and the person we went after was not a common criminal but one who formally declared and then committed multiple acts of war against the US.

[The Angel Raliel]

I basically mean that the activity should have been done as openly as possible....and the treatment of his body (regardless of who he was or what he represented) dealt with with the due respect and traditions of his culture....it is sort of showing respect and consideration even for enemies that shows us to be better than the extremists......I agree that his arrest and possible death were required.....I just think one has to understand the motivations of Al Quaida and not play into their hands by giving them even more motivation to hate the west........

[CeeGBee]

I basically mean that the activity should have been done as openly as possible....

It was.
The whole point of a commando operation is that no one knows about it 'til it's over.
Having completed the raid, they retrieved the dead guy so they could identify it so
certainly that even Donald Trump will have to accept that the guy really is dead, then
they made a big ol' public statement as soon as they could.

The best guess is that ISI was just as happy to see him gone, but they had lots of "friends"
in common, and if ISI had been in the proverbial loop, someone would have tipped Osama off.

and the treatment of his body (regardless of who he was or what he represented) dealt with with the due respect and traditions of his culture....it is sort of showing respect and consideration even for enemies that shows us to be better than the extremists......I agree that his arrest and possible death were required.....I just think one has to understand the motivations of Al Quaida and not play into their hands by giving them even more motivation to hate the west........

Which "culture" would that be?  Zero-tolerance pseudo-Islam?  
Throw him on top of a landfill and give his goons the link for the 24-hour webcam
so they can watch him rot unburied.  Who knows, maybe he really was the genius
his people have always said, and the whole organization will crumble without him.

(On the flipside, America's foes in North Vietnam got along just fine after Uncle Ho died....)

[Shock G]

I basically mean that the activity should have been done as openly as possible....and the treatment of his body (regardless of who he was or what he represented) dealt with with the due respect and traditions of his culture....it is sort of showing respect and consideration even for enemies that shows us to be better than the extremists......I agree that his arrest and possible death were required.....I just think one has to understand the motivations of Al Quaida and not play into their hands by giving them even more motivation to hate the west........

Well Al Queda really isn't a big group anymore, there is the base in Pakistan but around the world a lot of the other ones have no real connection but also are not major factors.  Look at Al Shabab in Somalia they will still exist but also are very localized.  Also we are taking covert actions against them with AC-130 gun ships and drones, the same for those in Yemen.  The latter though is influenced heavily by a US born cleric.

But back to how this might effect things when we knocked off the top guy in Al Queda in Iraq it lost a lot of its steam, yes it is still around but not as a major force.  Bin Laden for lack of a better term was the brand, he could still be in death but it also could all crumble/splinter.

We can not underestimate how big the youth movements in the Muslim world are though.  Before the face of resistance against the status quo of Western dominance/governments who allow it was the terrorist groups which while many did not support their actions they did support the idea of standing up to the corrupt governments.  Look at the Palestinian territories where Gaza was on the road to have a long term single party state after Hamas won the civil war with Fatah a few years back and 2 months back refused to allow local elections.  Facebook groups and protests have recently started and now they are going to form a unity government with Fatah and start down the path to hold elections.

The real flash point I see in the future sadly is Lebanon again since Hezbollah is a state within a state having their own military and holding complete power in some towns.  If people follow the rest of the region and rise up again there could be lots of violence as Hezbollah has a history of assassinating those who are against them.  But even here the dynamic is changing since one of their main benefactors and path for much of their weapons Syria is going through a revolution, and the big bank roller Iran might as well.  My hope is this really does make an end of an era of Muslim extremism....yes there will be isolated acts and nothing will stop them completely but we have random terrorist acts from all sorts of groups it sadly is a fact of life in today's world.

[Shock G]

I basically mean that the activity should have been done as openly as possible....

It was.
The whole point of a commando operation is that no one knows about it 'til it's over.
Having completed the raid, they retrieved the dead guy so they could identify it so
certainly that even Donald Trump will have to accept that the guy really is dead, then
they made a big ol' public statement as soon as they could.

The best guess is that ISI was just as happy to see him gone, but they had lots of "friends"
in common, and if ISI had been in the proverbial loop, someone would have tipped Osama off.

and the treatment of his body (regardless of who he was or what he represented) dealt with with the due respect and traditions of his culture....it is sort of showing respect and consideration even for enemies that shows us to be better than the extremists......I agree that his arrest and possible death were required.....I just think one has to understand the motivations of Al Quaida and not play into their hands by giving them even more motivation to hate the west........

Which "culture" would that be?  Zero-tolerance pseudo-Islam?  
Throw him on top of a landfill and give his goons the link for the 24-hour webcam
so they can watch him rot unburied.  Who knows, maybe he really was the genius
his people have always said, and the whole organization will crumble without him.

(On the flipside, America's foes in North Vietnam got along just fine after Uncle Ho died....)

North Vietnam was a government though, the only big guy left in Al Queda is Al Zawahiri.

[CeeGBee]

I was just reading some of the more in-depth news coverage and ran across this:

...The U.S. official who disclosed the burial at sea said it would have been difficult to find a country
willing to accept the remains. Obama said the remains had been handled in accordance with Islamic
custom, which requires speedy burial.

Now we can add him to the list with Biggie & Tupac & JFK.

Where are they really?

A freezer in Area 51 would be my guess.

[Savannah]

I was just reading some of the more in-depth news coverage and ran across this:

...The U.S. official who disclosed the burial at sea said it would have been difficult to find a country
willing to accept the remains. Obama said the remains had been handled in accordance with Islamic
custom, which requires speedy burial.

Now we can add him to the list with Biggie & Tupac & JFK.

Where are they really?

A freezer in Area 51 would be my guess.

Actually i have seen the picture and it looked to fake. Besides i live in a country whose people are %98 muslim, and i don't remember any of my relatives have been buried this quick. Seriously, it takes 2 days at least. I don't believe he is dead, and i don't believe it matters this much. I feel like it's a political move.

[The Angel Raliel]

here we go....already causing anti western feelings openly in the middle east
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/May/02/Hamas-leader-condemns-Bin-Ladens-killing.ashx#axzz1LCbudz3n

[lentower]

i'm always sadden to see a person die.

the way this was done will NOT help our relation with Pakistan,
and does nothing to cure the underlying issues that makes people terrorists.
like the saudi royal family.

?

If there was one US action in Pakistan to not get the people pissed this would be it, Osama is accepted around the world as someone who directly attacked America.  Drone strikes or intel operatives when discovered cause issues but this will be nothing but a blip and could be welcome in Pakistan, remember Al Queda has close ties to the Pakistani Taliban who have killed countless civilians and tried to take over the whole country just a little while back.

And people now know they don't need to be terrorists to take down a government like the royal family, for proof they can look to the West at Tunisia, Egypt, or to their southern border with Yemen.

there will be many people in Pakistan,
who will dislike that a supposed ally, the USA,
acted alone, instead of letting the Pakistani government
handle it.  (Yes, you can outline the reasons why this was
the strategic thing to do, but it won't change how those
Pakistanis feel about how their sovereignty was violated.
Even if, as Obama implied, he had the consent of a few of
Pakistan's senior leaders.  And those leaders will take even
more heat for letting the USA do this to Pakistan.)
Understanding the motivations of others is invaluable in
diplomacy and statecraft.

Sigh, of the countries you mention, Tunisia has the best chance
of the people getting what they want.  And you haven't mentioned
the 'failures' in Libya, Iran, Syria, Bahrain,
and all the others who haven't gone up against their dictator's guns yet.
I suggest you read some Bismarck and Kissinger.
Attempting real change without understanding reality is much less likely
to get you anywhere.

[lentower]

I was just reading some of the more in-depth news coverage and ran across this:

...The U.S. official who disclosed the burial at sea said it would have been difficult to find a country
willing to accept the remains. Obama said the remains had been handled in accordance with Islamic
custom, which requires speedy burial.

Now we can add him to the list with Biggie & Tupac & JFK.

Where are they really?

A freezer in Area 51 would be my guess.

Actually i have seen the picture and it looked to fake. Besides i live in a country whose people are %98 muslim, and i don't remember any of my relatives have been buried this quick. Seriously, it takes 2 days at least. I don't believe he is dead, and i don't believe it matters this much. I feel like it's a political move.

I believe you live in Turkey?

My understanding is that Turkey is not your typical Islamic country,

I also don't know what the Koran saids about burial.
Or how much burial customs vary across the Muslim world.

[The Angel Raliel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_funeral

[Savannah]

I was just reading some of the more in-depth news coverage and ran across this:

...The U.S. official who disclosed the burial at sea said it would have been difficult to find a country
willing to accept the remains. Obama said the remains had been handled in accordance with Islamic
custom, which requires speedy burial.

Now we can add him to the list with Biggie & Tupac & JFK.

Where are they really?

A freezer in Area 51 would be my guess.

Actually i have seen the picture and it looked to fake. Besides i live in a country whose people are %98 muslim, and i don't remember any of my relatives have been buried this quick. Seriously, it takes 2 days at least. I don't believe he is dead, and i don't believe it matters this much. I feel like it's a political move.

I believe you live in Turkey?

My understanding is that Turkey is not your typical Islamic country,

I also don't know what the Koran saids about burial.
Or how much borial customs vary across the Muslim world.

We don't use Islamic rules in our judgemental system, it's secular. But most of people are muslim. And though we are a lot different than Pakistan or any other Islamic country, ceremonies remain the same.
Actually when a muslim dies, first day either the body is sent to morgue or the family keeps it for a night. The second day it's sent to a local funeral undertaker and gets washed, it's called ablution. Later on, optionally, it waits for one more night so that all of the family members and friends hear about it and attend the funeral.

Last year my mother's aunt in law has died, it took 3 days.

Now, what i want to say is, it's optional. There's no rule about burying the dead in a hurry, it just has to be unimposing.

[Shock G]

i'm always sadden to see a person die.

the way this was done will NOT help our relation with Pakistan,
and does nothing to cure the underlying issues that makes people terrorists.
like the saudi royal family.

?

If there was one US action in Pakistan to not get the people pissed this would be it, Osama is accepted around the world as someone who directly attacked America.  Drone strikes or intel operatives when discovered cause issues but this will be nothing but a blip and could be welcome in Pakistan, remember Al Queda has close ties to the Pakistani Taliban who have killed countless civilians and tried to take over the whole country just a little while back.

And people now know they don't need to be terrorists to take down a government like the royal family, for proof they can look to the West at Tunisia, Egypt, or to their southern border with Yemen.

there will be many people in Pakistan,
who will dislike that a supposed ally, the USA,
acted alone, instead of letting the Pakistani government
handle it.  (Yes, you can outline the reasons why this was
the strategic thing to do, but it won't change how those
Pakistanis feel about how their sovereignty was violated.
Even if, as Obama implied, he had the consent of a few of
Pakistan's senior leaders.  And those leaders will take even
more heat for letting the USA do this to Pakistan.)
Understanding the motivations of others is invaluable in
diplomacy and statecraft.

A big view on this is that we are in the area to get Osama...the fact that he is now dead itself will not be a major issue it will be the question both there AND here in America why are we still there and this could give us the excuse needed to save face and pull out.  But again if you want to talk about the motivation of others the Pakistani people will be happy as Bin Laden is the face of the type of violence and suicide bombings which have been scaring their country in recent years.  You also have to remember they are pissed at us for much worse things, in the eyes of the general public here the US did not kill any civilians, did not have spies roaming around the country, and got what was their goal for being in the region.

Sigh, of the countries you mention, Tunisia has the best chance
of the people getting what they want.  And you haven't mentioned
the 'failures' in Libya, Iran, Syria, Bahrain,
and all the others who haven't gone up against their dictator's guns yet.
I suggest you read some Bismarck and Kissinger.
Attempting real change without understanding reality is much less likely
to get you anywhere.

Egypt seems to be moving pretty well, Syria is on the way too, Libya is the only one which has gone to full on war.  Iran is just waiting to go and the government there knows it, Bahrain is a proxy war of Iran/Saudi Arabia so that has a whole different dynamic (both of which though have their own issues with Iran as I mentioned 1 big outrage away from a green revolution, and the Saudi's buying off their people for now).  If you want to talk about reality Len I know many people on the ground in this area of the world and can tell you that the youth are pissed and looking for change.  Some countries will go peacefully like Tunisia, others will have civil wars like Libya, and most will be somewhere in the middle.

[Shock G]

here we go....already causing anti western feelings openly in the middle east
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/May/02/Hamas-leader-condemns-Bin-Ladens-killing.ashx#axzz1LCbudz3n

Hamas?  They are one of the governments holding down their people while at the same time committing acts of terrorism, they would condemn any US action.  Those opinions that matter will be the average person on the street, not what other terrorist organizations think.

[The Angel Raliel]

umm actually they are the palestinians fed up[ of US and UN ignoring isreal stealing land and killing people..... they have a lot of clout with even reasonably non militant muslims in the middle east
Yes they are just as bad as the isreali terrorists that commit atrocities to the palestinians...and neither side is right at this point....however it is REAL

[CeeGBee]

here we go....already causing anti western feelings openly in the middle east
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/May/02/Hamas-leader-condemns-Bin-Ladens-killing.ashx#axzz1LCbudz3n

Hamas?  They are one of the governments holding down their people while at the same time committing acts of terrorism, they would condemn any US action.  Those opinions that matter will be the average person on the street, not what other terrorist organizations think.

I would have to dispute your use of "causing"......

It's more a question of a pre-existing political entity attempting to exploit the opportunity to inflame potential
anti-American sentiment in their base.  We will doubtless see the very same thing from the political Right here
in the US, just as soon as they can agree on a way to spin the story that doesn't make Obama look good, and
Bush by comparison to look lame and misdirected.  My early guess, they'll go with the "Look at Obama trying
to take credit for the actions of our brave soldiers who are still carrying on the mission Brave Leader George
'The Surge' Bush sent them on..."

[Speaking of their base, do I remember someone telling me that al qaeda means "the base"?]

...but it'll be a tough sell, and really I think they'd be best off if they just said "good job" then tried to pretend
it never happened.  They won't, of course - as Capt. Mal said of the Reavers, It's their way...

[Savannah]

umm actually they are the palestinians fed up[ of US and UN ignoring isreal stealing land and killing people..... they have a lot of clout with even reasonably non militant muslims in the middle east
Yes they are just as bad as the isreali terrorists that commit atrocities to the palestinians...and neither side is right at this point....however it is REAL

This is soo right. Both sides are passive agressive, keep attacking each other.

Well i try to be objective, the embargo is terrible, Palestinian children are not only orphaned but also starved to death. It's open to dispute which side is right.

[Shock G]

umm actually they are the palestinians fed up[ of US and UN ignoring isreal stealing land and killing people..... they have a lot of clout with even reasonably non militant muslims in the middle east
Yes they are just as bad as the isreali terrorists that commit atrocities to the palestinians...and neither side is right at this point....however it is REAL

I saw in the other thread you ignore international precedents when it comes to Israel, like forgetting about the legality of blockades in international waters.  It seems you have quite a large bias in that conflict especially with your language here.  Not to mention even Goldstone has retracted his accusations of war crimes against Israel, and says there is no question Hamas commits them.

You can try to rationalize your bias but collateral damage when attacking people firing rockets at civilians is very different than those firing those rockets or the recent event of an anti-tank rocket being fired at a school bus.  You can criticize Israel's use of force but to equate the 2 sides simply does not work.

Hamas is an obstacle to peace who has been keeping an iron grip on Gaza pissing off many who live there.  They won because the people were fed up with fatah yet got something worse in return, and when they wanted to change it Hamas then went to deny elections.  There needs to be that mechanism for change for peace and a 2 state solution.  Israel has it and even though Bibi is in power now with a largely right wing coalition all it takes is one election to change that and instantly Israel can be much more open and willing for peace, if things calm down Kadima will hopefully gain a majority of seats.

[The Angel Raliel]

truly not biased....but international politics not especially my strong point either....however it is true to say that Isreal IS commiting atrocities as is Palestine.....and understandable that muslims in the middle east will use this event as a justification of extremist beliefs and perhaps radicalise some who were not

[Shock G]

umm actually they are the palestinians fed up[ of US and UN ignoring isreal stealing land and killing people..... they have a lot of clout with even reasonably non militant muslims in the middle east
Yes they are just as bad as the isreali terrorists that commit atrocities to the palestinians...and neither side is right at this point....however it is REAL

This is soo right. Both sides are passive agressive, keep attacking each other.

Well i try to be objective, the embargo is terrible, Palestinian children are not only orphaned but also starved to death. It's open to dispute which side is right.

Hamas is not that passive in their aggression, shelling civilian settlements indiscriminately and firing directly on school buses crosses a line Israel is nowhere near.  This is not to minimize civilian deaths in Gaza/the west bank but one side is actively trying to cause as many as possible while the other is trying to reduce them.

Also as to Palestinians starving to death that is not the facts on the ground, there is food going into Gaza the issue with the Israeli restrictions that people brought up were the seemingly arbitrary banning of things like candy which have no military use (which is the reason why building materials/those to be used for weapons are closely monitored).

[The Angel Raliel]

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/

[Shock G]

truly not biased....but international politics not especially my strong point either....however it is true to say that Isreal IS commiting atrocities as is Palestine.....and understandable that muslims in the middle east will use this event as a justification of extremist beliefs and perhaps radicalise some who were not

You should do a lot more research into this and I don't mean this as an insult as many of the the fundamentalist groups while they do care about Israel are more concerned about their own governments and portray themselves and Islam as a method of resistance.

Edit:  The examples of revolutions around the Muslim world are showing there is another path and that is the major change for the region.

[CeeGBee]

While it seems clear to me that neither side is in the right, comparing the Israeli government
and military to Hamas really is an apples-to-oranges matter.....

On the one hand, there's a minimally-accountable militarily focused group that periodically lobs a rocket or ten
into Israel, occasionally hitting somewhere in the general vicinity of inhabited  spaces, and every couple of months
actually injuring or killing someone.  Oh, and they brainwash hopeless, impressionable, unemployed folk to strap
on bombs and get as close to the Zionist Pigs as they can, and blow themselves up.  An open border is not a
good idea with neighbors like this.  (Oh, and they distribute food aid and maintain some sort of law-and-order in
the areas they control, and manipulate such activities to ensure their continued control.)

On the other, there's a highly-motivated democratic nation (trying hard to accommodate the ideals of free elections
with the reality of an apartheid state), subject to the wrath of their various factions if they take unpopular actions,
like actually shutting down the illegal settlements, or fail to take action when the neighbors launch rockets at them...
And their army goes into populated areas, and seeing few obvious armed enemies upon whom to get payback, they
instead shoot a bunch of civilians, bulldoze houses pretty much at random, and occasionally kill foreign protestors
(drawing a couple weeks bad press and a stern talking-to from their friends in Washington).

It's easy to censure Israel for failing to live up to various ideals we may have for politically-sophisticated,
economically-advanced states, but they don't have a whole lot of options, particularly given the range of
political factions within the State.

[Shock G]

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/

If you get your information purely from sources like that it would explain your view on the situation much as if someone only watched Fox News.  The issue is almost all sources have huge biases (even worse than US politics) so you need to balance that out with the pro-Israeli ones and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Shock G]

While it seems clear to me that neither side is in the right, comparing the Israeli government
and military to Hamas really is an apples-to-oranges matter.....

On the one hand, there's a minimally-accountable militarily focused group that periodically lobs a rocket or ten
into Israel, occasionally hitting somewhere in the general vicinity of inhabited  spaces, and every couple of months
actually injuring or killing someone.  Oh, and they brainwash hopeless, impressionable, unemployed folk to strap
on bombs and get as close to the Zionist Pigs as they can, and blow themselves up.  An open border is not a
good idea with neighbors like this.  (Oh, and they distribute food aid and maintain some sort of law-and-order in
the areas they control, and manipulate such activities to ensure their continued control.)

On the other, there's a highly-motivated democratic nation (trying hard to accommodate the ideals of free elections
with the reality of an apartheid state), subject to the wrath of their various factions if they take unpopular actions,
like actually shutting down the illegal settlements, or fail to take action when the neighbors launch rockets at them...
And their army goes into populated areas, and seeing few obvious armed enemies upon whom to get payback, they
instead shoot a bunch of civilians, bulldoze houses pretty much at random, and occasionally kill foreign protestors
(drawing a couple weeks bad press and a stern talking-to from their friends in Washington).

It's easy to censure Israel for failing to live up to various ideals we may have for politically-sophisticated,
economically-advanced states, but they don't have a whole lot of options, particularly given the range of
political factions within the State.

For those in countries with divided government now imagine 5 major parties so it is always coalition government.  Some of these are hard core right wing parties and will demand certain pandering to get their support....which beyond Bibi's own views is what he is dealing with.  Lieberman looks like he might go down on some criminal charges though which will make for a much better government as he is the extreme end of the spectrum yet has a lot of power due to governments needing his support.

[The Angel Raliel]

oh indeed but worth considering that an Awful lot of people get their opinions from things like fox news

[Shock G]

oh indeed but worth considering that an Awful lot of people get their opinions from things like fox news

Which is the issue, if you have on one side like Avigdor Lieberman as the deputy prime minister, and a group like Hamas on the other no peace will be made since they are so extreme.  Their "compromise" positions would be so far out of the acceptable range for the other side as to be a joke.

[Savannah]

While it seems clear to me that neither side is in the right, comparing the Israeli government
and military to Hamas really is an apples-to-oranges matter.....

On the one hand, there's a minimally-accountable militarily focused group that periodically lobs a rocket or ten
into Israel, occasionally hitting somewhere in the general vicinity of inhabited  spaces, and every couple of months
actually injuring or killing someone.  Oh, and they brainwash hopeless, impressionable, unemployed folk to strap
on bombs and get as close to the Zionist Pigs as they can, and blow themselves up.  An open border is not a
good idea with neighbors like this.  (Oh, and they distribute food aid and maintain some sort of law-and-order in
the areas they control, and manipulate such activities to ensure their continued control.)

On the other, there's a highly-motivated democratic nation (trying hard to accommodate the ideals of free elections
with the reality of an apartheid state), subject to the wrath of their various factions if they take unpopular actions,
like actually shutting down the illegal settlements, or fail to take action when the neighbors launch rockets at them...
And their army goes into populated areas, and seeing few obvious armed enemies upon whom to get payback, they
instead shoot a bunch of civilians, bulldoze houses pretty much at random, and occasionally kill foreign protestors
(drawing a couple weeks bad press and a stern talking-to from their friends in Washington).

It's easy to censure Israel for failing to live up to various ideals we may have for politically-sophisticated,
economically-advanced states, but they don't have a whole lot of options, particularly given the range of
political factions within the State.

This!

[lentower]

While it seems clear to me that neither side is in the right, comparing the Israeli government
and military to Hamas really is an apples-to-oranges matter.....

On the one hand, there's a minimally-accountable militarily focused group that periodically lobs a rocket or ten
into Israel, occasionally hitting somewhere in the general vicinity of inhabited  spaces, and every couple of months
actually injuring or killing someone.  Oh, and they brainwash hopeless, impressionable, unemployed folk to strap
on bombs and get as close to the Zionist Pigs as they can, and blow themselves up.  An open border is not a
good idea with neighbors like this.  (Oh, and they distribute food aid and maintain some sort of law-and-order in
the areas they control, and manipulate such activities to ensure their continued control.)

On the other, there's a highly-motivated democratic nation (trying hard to accommodate the ideals of free elections
with the reality of an apartheid state), subject to the wrath of their various factions if they take unpopular actions,
like actually shutting down the illegal settlements, or fail to take action when the neighbors launch rockets at them...
And their army goes into populated areas, and seeing few obvious armed enemies upon whom to get payback, they
instead shoot a bunch of civilians, bulldoze houses pretty much at random, and occasionally kill foreign protestors
(drawing a couple weeks bad press and a stern talking-to from their friends in Washington).

It's easy to censure Israel for failing to live up to various ideals we may have for politically-sophisticated,
economically-advanced states, but they don't have a whole lot of options, particularly given the range of
political factions within the State.

WORD

the changes in Egypt and elsewhere in the middle east,
are going to make it much harder for israel and it ally(ies)

[The Angel Raliel]

al we can hope for is a future of forward thinking and p;rogreesive governments to replace the bigoted ones of the past....this does not mean they have to be based on american or european models

[CeeGBee]

We will doubtless see the very same thing from the political Right here
in the US, just as soon as they can agree on a way to spin the story that doesn't make Obama look good, and
Bush by comparison to look lame and misdirected.  My early guess, they'll go with the "Look at Obama trying
to take credit for the actions of our brave soldiers who are still carrying on the mission Brave Leader George
'The Surge' Bush sent them on..."

This just in:

[lentower]

I was just reading some of the more in-depth news coverage and ran across this:

...The U.S. official who disclosed the burial at sea said it would have been difficult to find a country
willing to accept the remains. Obama said the remains had been handled in accordance with Islamic
custom, which requires speedy burial.

Now we can add him to the list with Biggie & Tupac & JFK.

Where are they really?

A freezer in Area 51 would be my guess.

Actually i have seen the picture and it looked to fake. Besides i live in a country whose people are %98 muslim, and i don't remember any of my relatives have been buried this quick. Seriously, it takes 2 days at least. I don't believe he is dead, and i don't believe it matters this much. I feel like it's a political move.

I believe you live in Turkey?

My understanding is that Turkey is not your typical Islamic country,

I also don't know what the Koran saids about burial.
Or how much borial customs vary across the Muslim world.

We don't use Islamic rules in our judgemental system, it's secular. But most of people are muslim. And though we are a lot different than Pakistan or any other Islamic country, ceremonies remain the same.
Actually when a muslim dies, first day either the body is sent to morgue or the family keeps it for a night. The second day it's sent to a local funeral undertaker and gets washed, it's called ablution. Later on, optionally, it waits for one more night so that all of the family members and friends hear about it and attend the funeral.

Last year my mother's aunt in law has died, it took 3 days.

Now, what i want to say is, it's optional. There's no rule about burying the dead in a hurry, it just has to be unimposing.

they should have just kept OBL's remains in a freezer @ Gitmo.
it's, sadly, become the US' legal dumping ground


i hope they had a fully qualified forensic MD do a full autopsy.
and they release it.


it's occurred to me that the bulk of President Obama's
experience with Islam is in Indonesia.

A wet and hot country,
that was much less developed when he lived there,
and where remains decay rapidly.

Where true, bodies got buried/cremated quickly.

I hope this kind of personal knowledge,
is NOT what lead to his comments last night,
about Islamic burial timing.

[CeeGBee]

A full autopsy?  To what end?

Is it/is it not OBL?  DNA test confirms that.

Cause of death? Traumatic ballistic removal of large quantities of cranial matter and blood.

Any other questions?

[JohnnyDBBUK]

I have a question.
When will the commandos do the same to Bush and Blair who by their actions have caused the death of 4 times more innocent civilians than Osama Bin Laden? OBL began by fighting invading Russians, then switched his attention to the US after they set-up shop near Holy Sites. Cause and effect. Would he have started his campaign if they hadn't who knows but an interesting point nonetheless. Another case point> Ireland, would the IRA had got so many followers/members if the British Army hadn't opened fire on a civil rights march killing teenagers, Dads and Grandads? everyone keep to your own lands and stop fucking around in other peoples countries.

Fuck it, killing is wrong. Even if it is killing a murderous fucktard.
All this shit has done is create more followers and increased risk of retaliatory attack.

OBL should have been arrested, tried and then sentenced to punishment for the rest of his days.
Death is an instant punishment a prolonged one is more fitting in my eyes. An evil man should pay penance not die imo.
Justice not murder.

[The Angel Raliel]

my point exactly..... what if the british had in the 70s sent a group of soldiers to the US and assinated those that were supplying the IRA?

[N.U.]

You can be soft about this and continue doing what we did during Bush's term, using OBL as a boogey-man, or you can have the stone to make the decision to end a life.

Obama chose the latter. Let the Republicans try to make Democrats out to be the party of platitudes and placation in 2012.

[Shock G]

my point exactly..... what if the british had in the 70s sent a group of soldiers to the US and assinated those that were supplying the IRA?

Where did that come from? 

This was the head of a terrorist organization, not some guy who donated to a fund or even ran a fund that funneled money to them, those people we freeze their assets/arrest and many are in jail.  You are comparing apples to hamburgers.

[The Angel Raliel]

actually he was always just a spokesman...when it came to the war against the west he was pretty much not the one who actually DID anything just condoned and financed it...get your facts together

[N.U.]

Should Charles Manson be in jail? After all, he was just a spokesman. He never actually murdered anyone.

[Shock G]

I have a question.
When will the commandos do the same to Bush and Blair who by their actions have caused the death of 4 times more innocent civilians than Osama Bin Laden? OBL began by fighting invading Russians, then switched his attention to the US after they set-up shop near Holy Sites. Cause and effect. Would he have started his campaign if they hadn't who knows but an interesting point nonetheless. Another case point> Ireland, would the IRA had got so many followers/members if the British Army hadn't opened fire on a civil rights march killing teenagers, Dads and Grandads? everyone keep to your own lands and stop fucking around in other peoples countries.

Fuck it, killing is wrong. Even if it is killing a murderous fucktard.
All this shit has done is create more followers and increased risk of retaliatory attack.

OBL should have been arrested, tried and then sentenced to punishment for the rest of his days.
Death is an instant punishment a prolonged one is more fitting in my eyes. An evil man should pay penance not die imo.
Justice not murder.

First to the part in bold it was due to the US defending the holy land and not his fighters.  When Saddam invaded Kuwait and was on the border ready to strike Saudi Arabia (and if he attacked right away he would have conquered it easily) Osama contacted the Saudi royal family saying his forces that had just finished in Afghanistan could come and defend the kingdom, but instead he was snubbed in favor of the US.

Now to create the alternate history, Saudi Arabia is a desert not a mountainous region where small units have such a great effect (and why no one has been able to conquer Afghanistan in history) so Saddam's tank's would roll over them and then he would have most of the World's oil reserves.  Not a situation anyone would want, so the US and the rest of the first gulf war coalition had to act even if just in their vital economic self interests.

Killing is wrong but not all killing is the same, just look at our legal system and the various degrees of malicious killing from involuntary manslaughter to premeditated murder and many steps in between, and some cases where it is in self defense have no charges.  Trying to compare civilian deaths as part of collateral damage in a military strike/operation to a blatant attempt to kill as many civilians as possible would be like equating involuntary manslaughter to murder in the 1st degree.  And historically unless there is an explicit show of intent by commanders or soldiers to commit mass crimes then they are not judged as such since war when it boils down to it is killing people and no one has been able to ever just kill the “bad guys” no matter how hard they try.

[Shock G]

actually he was always just a spokesman...when it came to the war against the west he was pretty much not the one who actually DID anything just condoned and financed it...get your facts together

Because he didn't physically kill people it is different? Edit: the Charles Manson example above can replace this part.  

And also where did you get your facts on to what exactly Bin Laden did?  How do you know he did not help plan 9/11, the USS Cole, or the other bombings.

[Shock G]

Should Charles Manson be in jail? After all, he was just a spokesman. He never actually murdered anyone.

 

I hate making Goodwin's law come true so I'll edit that part out of mine 

[Shock G]

[The Angel Raliel]

how do you know he did? .....listen i am sure if we were discussing this face to face we would probably end up agreeing over much of this....but it is kind of meandering away from the point that open celebration of ANY death is a bad thing and the way forward is not killing but conversation

[N.U.]

Bin Laden was blown up into some giant boogeyman, though. The celebration may be distasteful to a small minority (true pacifists and Muslim extremists), but OBL's passing was absolutely, IMO, both called for and necessary for the collective psyche of the country.

[Shock G]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-may-2-2011/to-kill-a-mockingturd

Watch this.

[The Angel Raliel]

apparently us brits are too liberal to watch this

[N.U.]

it's true, you are, unless your name is either Jeremy Clarkson or Richard Hammond.
More from Obama on Bin Laden.

[Shock G]

[Agonistes]

A full autopsy?  To what end?

Is it/is it not OBL?  DNA test confirms that.

Cause of death? Traumatic ballistic removal of large quantities of cranial matter and blood.

Any other questions?

how can a dna test confirm it so quickly?  as i understand it, dna tests take at least a week for a confirmed answer.

i'm sure the guy is dead, but we are still being lied to.

[Shock G]

A full autopsy?  To what end?

Is it/is it not OBL?  DNA test confirms that.

Cause of death? Traumatic ballistic removal of large quantities of cranial matter and blood.

Any other questions?

how can a dna test confirm it so quickly?  as i understand it, dna tests take at least a week for a confirmed answer.

i'm sure the guy is dead, but we are still being lied to.

You have the guy's son so you can just run a few key genes and if they match you're good.  The big wait in civilian DNA testing is the long line of samples while this one was run probably the second they touched down on the ship.

[Agonistes]

yeah, was just reading about all that.  they matched his sister's dna profile overnight and whatnot, one of his alleged wives i.d'd the body, etc.  i get the burial at sea, to prevent a sort of shrine for followers to visit.  would be easier to find em though, if they had.

it's just, in this age of overload of information, there isn't much.  that's all i'm really saying.

i'm torn between my natural mistrust of being told the truth by the current administration (or any other one) and my penchant for the tried and true 'head on a pike' method preferred for centuries in situations like this.

[N.U.]

A full autopsy?  To what end?

Is it/is it not OBL?  DNA test confirms that.

Cause of death? Traumatic ballistic removal of large quantities of cranial matter and blood.

Any other questions?

how can a dna test confirm it so quickly?  as i understand it, dna tests take at least a week for a confirmed answer.

i'm sure the guy is dead, but we are still being lied to.

There's a "quick test" which can be done in a few hours, basically paternity tests to check for familial relation. This is why the facial recognition software was also important.

The long test, (which you're referring to, Ag) takes approximately 10 days to complete.

[Agonistes]

is there no chance it could have been a brother or relative of some sort?  i'm not saying at all that i believe conspiracy theory or anything, but the short tests all seem to conclude 'relative' and not 'specific relative.'  since the guy was willing to strap bombs onto his kids, yanno.

of course, nothing short of a new video release from him, with tits and timestamp, would convince us otherwise.  i'm really just thinking out loud while trying to avoid more news about this shit.  it kind of burns my ass that i even get so mistrustful when i hear news anymore.


also, and this probably comes from having a family member in the military, it bugs me that we're not scatting ass out of there as quickly as we dumped the body.  no word of forces withdrawing or anything yet...i mean if we're in such a goddamned hurry, and all.

[theseeker]

My history teacher almost started crying today when he was talking about 9/11... I don't even remember it.

[N.U.]

The government lies. See the USS Liberty incident. My dad was the communications specialist working on the aircraft carrier USS America at the time of the the attack. My dad has insisted to this day that the official story is pure BS. My dad has photos he took himself of the USS Liberty and a copy of his comm log from that day. All hatches methodically shot off, bombs dropped through the holes in the deck. several torpedos thrown into her side. Oversized ensign (flag) being flown by the USS Liberty at the time.

This doesn't mean the government lies every time they have an announcement, which is the large problem with people today. So black and white.

[Agonistes]

The government lies. See the USS Liberty incident. My dad was the communications specialist working on the aircraft carrier USS America at the time of the the attack. My dad has insisted to this day that the official story is pure BS. My dad has photos he took himself of the USS Liberty and a copy of his comm log from that day. All hatches methodically shot off, bombs dropped through the holes in the deck. several torpedos thrown into her side. Oversized ensign (flag) being flown by the USS Liberty at the time.

This doesn't mean the government lies every time they have an announcement, which is the large problem with people today. So black and white.

well, this.  i've known like five or six soldiers who have directly refuted what the official story was.  hence my inability to believe when i am told without alllllll the questions being answered at once, so to speak.

also, just out of curiosity, how in fuck did we manage to blow up yet another helicopter, this time with no casualties to US soldiers?

[N.U.]

More details about that. Both choppers were supposed to hover, but the chopper hovering over the compound was hovering too low. Basically it created an air dam and the chopper ate it's own rotor wash, stalling the engine. It only fell straight down from about 15 feet.

The SEALS destroyed the chopper as a matter of policy (i.e. keeping classified/controlled material out of the hands of the enemy) on their way out.

The mission, smartly, had asked for 4 helos; 2 primary and 2 reserve. A reserve chopper was called in to pick up the troops from the downed chopper.

[Shock G]

My history teacher almost started crying today when he was talking about 9/11... I don't even remember it.

 

Damn young people are out and about and even are on those computer thingys now!

[Shock G]

More details about that. Both choppers were supposed to hover, but the chopper hovering over the compound was hovering too low. Basically it created an air dam and the chopper ate it's own rotor wash, stalling the engine. It only fell straight down from about 15 feet.

The SEALS destroyed the chopper as a matter of policy (i.e. keeping classified/controlled material out of the hands of the enemy) on their way out.

The mission, smartly, had asked for 4 helos; 2 primary and 2 reserve. A reserve chopper was called in to pick up the troops from the downed chopper.

We fucked up the rescue mission for hostages in Iran thanks to not having enough operable aircraft so this doesn't surprise me at all with such a high value mission.

[Agonistes]

More details about that. Both choppers were supposed to hover, but the chopper hovering over the compound was hovering too low. Basically it created an air dam and the chopper ate it's own rotor wash, stalling the engine. It only fell straight down from about 15 feet.

The SEALS destroyed the chopper as a matter of policy (i.e. keeping classified/controlled material out of the hands of the enemy) on their way out.

The mission, smartly, had asked for 4 helos; 2 primary and 2 reserve. A reserve chopper was called in to pick up the troops from the downed chopper.

yep, came across that stuff too.  now i'm looking for transcripts from bin laden's tapes, but they're hard to find.

[Shock G]

Pakistan is not some backwater as they are always ready for war with India......and we have helos that can sneak in through that air defense net without issue.  Now that is pretty damn impressive.

[JohnnyDBBUK]

murder murder murder fun fun fun

"I killed a unicorn today. I did a DNA test to prove it was a unicorn, but the pics I took are too horrific to show you. As a mark of respect to the magical beast, I quickly buried it at sea. You all believe me don't you?"

[N.U.]

Wow, talk about somebody who completely missed the point... Look no further than ^

Seriously. If you think OBL is somehow still alive and hasn't come out with a vid of him holding up today's newspaper thumbing his nose at the US, then you've been reading too much 1984.

[Agonistes]

so, i read the transcript of bin laden's message to the american people he sent out four years after 9-11.  it didn't sound anything like the way it was paraphrased on the news.  odd to me how western sources seemingly have no interest in translating or publishing the actual message.

kinda angry at his short-sightedness, now.  like most guys like this, he makes perfect sense up to a limit, and then loses it all by being willing to take lives to make a point.  looks like somebody watched too many cowboy movies; i think he underestimated americans as easily as he believed americans misinterpreted his society.


also, if it is true about using women as a human shield; well i'm just glad one more misogynist is out of the way.  maybe if all the males get thinned out enough over there, the women will take off their pillowcases and start making some rules, for a change.  i'm actually amazed that hasn't happened yet, what with the constant rock-throwing and strafing here and there..

[imaginary friend]

didn't Pakistan have a woman president back in the late '80s?

#@!

[CeeGBee]

didn't Pakistan have a woman president back in the late '80s?

#@!

A woman of Kurdish-Iranian ancestry.....   

She was assassinated in '07.   

WIKI - Benazir Bhutto

[The Angel Raliel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0u3uKsHk3I

[Shock G]

Wow, talk about somebody who completely missed the point... Look no further than ^

Seriously. If you think OBL is somehow still alive and hasn't come out with a vid of him holding up today's newspaper thumbing his nose at the US, then you've been reading too much 1984.

Al Qaeda still hasn't even put out a message in response....looks like we scared them shitless by catching Bin Laden through the courier network (the only form of communication they have since others can be seen by the US).

[Agonistes]

i doubt we will see a message in the form of a figurehead.  no one would be willing to be the 'face' of al-queda after this.

[JohnnyDBBUK]

Wow, talk about somebody who completely missed the point... Look no further than ^

Seriously. If you think OBL is somehow still alive and hasn't come out with a vid of him holding up today's newspaper thumbing his nose at the US, then you've been reading too much 1984.

I'm an agent of comedy.
nothing more

but lets be honest are you all so cool with your Government ok-ing midnight murderfests against whoever they please across the world? That scares the shit out of me that they do that so casually around the world.
Newsflash American Government ye don't own the world. Borders must be respected. Cross a border you will most likely piss some militant type off.

I know Osama was the devil to you all but does anyone care about justice or any form of public trial and lifelong punishment? Or is it just guns blazing vengeance all round?
I thought the west was civilised?

[CeeGBee]

but lets be honest are you all so cool with your Government ok-ing midnight murderfests against whoever they please across the world? That scares the shit out of me that they do that so casually around the world.
Newsflash American Government ye don't own the world. Borders must be respected. Cross a border you will most likely piss some militant type off.

Honestly, I'm not so terribly concerned about Osama bL waking up with an American hit-squad in his room.....

What does bother me rather a lot is the as-yet-undetermined (but probably in the hundreds) number of men kidnapped
by US and allied security/intelligence agencies, frequently on no more basis than a tip from a neighbour, and whisked off
to secret prisons in unnamed countries to be held and tortured without charge or a chance to contest their detainment...

If you spy guys didn't think it was illegal, why didn't you bring 'em back here?
Possibly because you knew damn well there's no law anywhere that would approve?
Not US law, not "international law", no treaty, nuthin'.....

[Agonistes]

Wow, talk about somebody who completely missed the point... Look no further than ^

Seriously. If you think OBL is somehow still alive and hasn't come out with a vid of him holding up today's newspaper thumbing his nose at the US, then you've been reading too much 1984.

I'm an agent of comedy.
nothing more

but lets be honest are you all so cool with your Government ok-ing midnight murderfests against whoever they please across the world? That scares the shit out of me that they do that so casually around the world.
Newsflash American Government ye don't own the world. Borders must be respected. Cross a border you will most likely piss some militant type off.

I know Osama was the devil to you all but does anyone care about justice or any form of public trial and lifelong punishment? Or is it just guns blazing vengeance all round?
I thought the west was civilised?

i'm all about understanding, fair trial, and that sort of thing.  but you have to understand the us government was ending a ten year manhunt, in bin laden's case, and that at the end of how many countless gazillions of dollars and lives of soldiers lost?  and not just americans, either.  also, bin laden claimed responsibility for the deaths of two thousand american civilians.  he, himself, was NOT a civilian.  he actively had declared war on our government, and was both pleased and dismissive about civilian deaths.  and in a state of war, there is no tribunal.  i was not allowed to speak for my country when it was attacked by his 'brothers.'  there was no trial for the two thousand plus citizens sentenced to death in his 'jihad.'

so yeah, i'm pretty okay with it.  i'm actually not sure one would easily understand how many american civilians would love to have actually pulled the trigger.

[Shock G]

but lets be honest are you all so cool with your Government ok-ing midnight murderfests against whoever they please across the world? That scares the shit out of me that they do that so casually around the world.
Newsflash American Government ye don't own the world. Borders must be respected. Cross a border you will most likely piss some militant type off.

Honestly, I'm not so terribly concerned about Osama bL waking up with an American hit-squad in his room.....

What does bother me rather a lot is the as-yet-undetermined (but probably in the hundreds) number of men kidnapped
by US and allied security/intelligence agencies, frequently on no more basis than a tip from a neighbour, and whisked off
to secret prisons in unnamed countries to be held and tortured without charge or a chance to contest their detainment...

If you spy guys didn't think it was illegal, why didn't you bring 'em back here?
Possibly because you knew damn well there's no law anywhere that would approve?
Not US law, not "international law", no treaty, nuthin'.....

We could whisk them off to Gitmo which I believe would be "legal", rendition was more for torture as other countries use techniques that make water boarding (which is deemed torture by most definitions, and we included it in a charge of war crimes during WWII) seem mild, and the CIA prisons where they did who knows what.

After 9/11 was a crazy time and we fucked up big, there were no laws basically and the administration took advantage of that, it took around 5 years to finally have things come to light and for judicial over site to be able to start to step in.

There will always be "black" missions around the globe like right now we are fighting in Somalia as well as Yemen but in a much smaller role.  This is probably what the "War on Terror" will become, if there is a hot spot the US will use it's forces to minimize the strength of terrorist organizations and try to stop their ability to strike us.  This sort of thing in Afghanistan is a much better option than our current attempt at occupying a land no one has been able to hold in recorded history.

As for the post 9/11 world and freedom this is a huge issue and the government gained lots of power with the patriot act and even with a new president they haven't really given up any of it.

[Savannah]

Well what makes me really scared is that Al-Qaeda will get agressive over America and some other countries again.

In past our government tried to stop their organizational structure inside our borders, and they started attacking, suicide bombing, kidnapping, etc, they even blew up a synagogue which caused many people to die. I can't remember much but i think it took nearly a year for them to calm down.

So i think, Osama was a symbol and they still believe in the same dogmas as they used to 10 years back. There are many leaders they follow, not just Osama.

So it's time to take precautions instead of celebrating this death. I'm terribly afraid of crowded places right now.

[JohnnyDBBUK]

but lets be honest are you all so cool with your Government ok-ing midnight murderfests against whoever they please across the world? That scares the shit out of me that they do that so casually around the world.
Newsflash American Government ye don't own the world. Borders must be respected. Cross a border you will most likely piss some militant type off.

Honestly, I'm not so terribly concerned about Osama bL waking up with an American hit-squad in his room.....

What does bother me rather a lot is the as-yet-undetermined (but probably in the hundreds) number of men kidnapped
by US and allied security/intelligence agencies, frequently on no more basis than a tip from a neighbour, and whisked off
to secret prisons in unnamed countries to be held and tortured without charge or a chance to contest their detainment...

If you spy guys didn't think it was illegal, why didn't you bring 'em back here?
Possibly because you knew damn well there's no law anywhere that would approve?
Not US law, not "international law", no treaty, nuthin'.....

Cee I agree with you but I just wish they took him in rather than go guns blazing. From the sound of things the compound was caught with its pants down and had little time to mobilise so I really don't believe they had no option of than shoot to kill.
Another thing that bugs me about US forces playing about abroad is that they pick their fights under the banner of peace keeping/democracy building when in fact it's usually about protecting their own interests.
if they were so virtuous in thier war on terror etc why didn't they go sort out for example Mugabe or Kim Jong Il or better yet have a talk with China about their human rights offences.
They just convienently go where there are resources/American interests and it sullies the 'heroic west schpiel'. This is how the world sees it I am not sure how it is reported in the states.

[The Angel Raliel]

also as predicted...the real head of Al quaida has issued a statement declaring a new era of attacks upon the west....thanks for that

[N.U.]

What did you expect them to say? Seriously.

"Oh! Good one. You Americans got us but good. We cannot possibly recover from this loss."

Seriously.

[Shock G]

What did you expect them to say? Seriously.

"Oh! Good one. You Americans got us but good. We cannot possibly recover from this loss."

Seriously.

It's like earlier when there was an example shown of a terrorist organization condemning it to try and say hey look they are pissed we did it.  Of course a terrorist leader will be pissed off to know that if the US is attacked they will get you.

[Shock G]

but lets be honest are you all so cool with your Government ok-ing midnight murderfests against whoever they please across the world? That scares the shit out of me that they do that so casually around the world.
Newsflash American Government ye don't own the world. Borders must be respected. Cross a border you will most likely piss some militant type off.

Honestly, I'm not so terribly concerned about Osama bL waking up with an American hit-squad in his room.....

What does bother me rather a lot is the as-yet-undetermined (but probably in the hundreds) number of men kidnapped
by US and allied security/intelligence agencies, frequently on no more basis than a tip from a neighbour, and whisked off
to secret prisons in unnamed countries to be held and tortured without charge or a chance to contest their detainment...

If you spy guys didn't think it was illegal, why didn't you bring 'em back here?
Possibly because you knew damn well there's no law anywhere that would approve?
Not US law, not "international law", no treaty, nuthin'.....

Cee I agree with you but I just wish they took him in rather than go guns blazing. From the sound of things the compound was caught with its pants down and had little time to mobilise so I really don't believe they had no option of than shoot to kill.
Another thing that bugs me about US forces playing about abroad is that they pick their fights under the banner of peace keeping/democracy building when in fact it's usually about protecting their own interests.
if they were so virtuous in thier war on terror etc why didn't they go sort out for example Mugabe or Kim Jong Il or better yet have a talk with China about their human rights offences.
They just convienently go where there are resources/American interests and it sullies the 'heroic west schpiel'. This is how the world sees it I am not sure how it is reported in the states.

China and North Korea are nuclear powers, China actually has the power to destroy most US cities with ICBM's so it is pretty obvious why we don't go gun blazing into there.  And for North Korea 1 second of aggression means they use their artillery on Seoul and in all of 15 minutes without a nuke even that city is destroyed.

Now as to going into the compound have you seen the photos?  That was a heavily fortified building they needed to go in guns ready and reports were of a fire fight so it sounds like they were met with armed resistance.

[N.U.]

What would be the purpose of grabbing him? You're talking about one huge security headache and no trial anything more than a show trial due to the high profile of OBL.

I prefer to send a clear message, "if you kill several thousand of our innocent countrymen, we will end you."

Harsh? Ask the folks who died in the WTC in 1993 and 2001, both embassies that were blown in 1998 in Tanzania and Kenya (practically simultaneously), those who died on the USS Cole in 2000, and those who died in the Pentagon in 2001 if they think it's harsh.

Casualty list
1993 WTC bombing: Dead: 6 (7 if you count the unborn child who died) Wounded: 1,042
1998 embassy bombings: Dead: 223 Wounded: 4,085
2000 USS Cole bombing: Dead 17 Wounded : 39
9/11/01: Dead: 2,977 Wounded: Undetermined due to continued WTC Dust exposure claims

Totals: Dead: 3,223 Wounded: 5,166 plus undetermined continued WTC Dust exposure claims

Killing the guy who planned all of this chaos, to me, seems, for lack of a better word, righteous.

[Agonistes]

but lets be honest are you all so cool with your Government ok-ing midnight murderfests against whoever they please across the world? That scares the shit out of me that they do that so casually around the world.
Newsflash American Government ye don't own the world. Borders must be respected. Cross a border you will most likely piss some militant type off.

Honestly, I'm not so terribly concerned about Osama bL waking up with an American hit-squad in his room.....

What does bother me rather a lot is the as-yet-undetermined (but probably in the hundreds) number of men kidnapped
by US and allied security/intelligence agencies, frequently on no more basis than a tip from a neighbour, and whisked off
to secret prisons in unnamed countries to be held and tortured without charge or a chance to contest their detainment...

If you spy guys didn't think it was illegal, why didn't you bring 'em back here?
Possibly because you knew damn well there's no law anywhere that would approve?
Not US law, not "international law", no treaty, nuthin'.....

Cee I agree with you but I just wish they took him in rather than go guns blazing. From the sound of things the compound was caught with its pants down and had little time to mobilise so I really don't believe they had no option of than shoot to kill.
Another thing that bugs me about US forces playing about abroad is that they pick their fights under the banner of peace keeping/democracy building when in fact it's usually about protecting their own interests.
if they were so virtuous in thier war on terror etc why didn't they go sort out for example Mugabe or Kim Jong Il or better yet have a talk with China about their human rights offences.
They just convienently go where there are resources/American interests and it sullies the 'heroic west schpiel'. This is how the world sees it I am not sure how it is reported in the states.

this isn't a case of us forces going where they aren't wanted.  well, maybe it is, but it doesn't actually matter.  it actually WAS a case of of american interests being protected.  osama bin laden didn't have any oil.  and really it doesn't matter what the world thinks; most of america remembers watching people try to climb out flaming windows and dropping to their deaths while we watched two buildings collapse, in horror.  we shot the guy who sent videotapes gloating about that incident and claiming full responsibility.  pretty sure america is okay with what happened and how it happened.  not really sure why other countries would even blink an eye (had they been bombed by terrorists, america would probably be the first one on the scene with aid--let me just take a moment to thank europe for all that help we didn't get), but then, we've bailed most of europe out before, too, and nobody ever pays us back or thanks us, beyond publicly condemning whatever we do in public.

i'm pretty sure they would have brought bin laden in if they had been able, but as nu says, the security nightmare....not to mention it's all on our bill.  but, if the standing order was go in and kill anything that moves, i don't see how anyone has the fucking balls to say a word of condemnation about it one way or the other.  it's not like we crashed a hijacked plane full of al-queda civilian passengers into his house or anything.  nobody forced him out of his office with a jet engine.  he didn't have to try to climb to safety while on fire.

this was not a picked fight by the americans.  this was a fight americans got dragged into.  we've bitched about this whole damn war and what it cost the whole time we have had forces there.  we've gotten fussed at for using mild torture-like methods instead of actual torture, when our soldiers and civilians are getting blown up and sawn to death with serrated knives to the throat.  we've gotten yelled at for only wanting oil when we depose a dictator, and when we spend everything in our treasury on a ten year manhunt to find a guy who declared war on us, quite successfully.  yet, we surely just did it for the oil.  notwithstanding we're paying out the ass for gas over here right now.

right now, we have soldiers saying things like 'what do you mean 'we' got him?'

don't get me wrong, i have no need of forces in the middle east.  i've opposed the 'war' since before it started, and i have opposed just about everything the bush family ever did.  i don't see why it wouldn't have been cheaper just to send in an assassin.  but i have no problem whatsoever with bin laden being shot on sight.  i just wish there had been a camera available, and that they had shot him for the world to see, but even with this completely justified and awesome strike, america's trying to at least be somewhat decent about it.  sure, we're a bunch of asshole cowboys, whatever.  but jesus christ, it would be nice once in a big-butted blue moon to see someone say, well done america, you got that guy who killed a shitload of your civilians.  fuck, it's not that often we do anything quite so awesome.

maybe some of you guys aren't old enough to remember that day.  hopefully none of you will ever see a day like that on tv, where the reporters for once don't even know what the fuck to say.  once you see and your mind finally lets you comprehend something of that magnitude, it's hard to understand how anyone could think a fair trial could result from an act like that.

[JohnnyDBBUK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpP7b2lUxVE

I'm 31 - I remember perfectly well and I remember the hate I felt that day.
but
I also remember your Presidents idiotic self motivated reaction which killed 4 times as many Iraqi and Afghan civilians.

Don't mistake any of my words for pro Taliban feeling because I think they are evil, they subjugate women and have brutal methods of controlling communities.

I just think America needs to be more careful in it's actions accross the world.

Europe sang feed the world
America sang we are the world.
no, no you are not. 

[Andy Pants]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

[Agonistes]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

i've heard he was unarmed, and i've also heard he fired a shot and refused to surrender his weapon, while hiding behind one of his wives.  also, it's irresponsible to have your kid nearby when you are at war.

either way, i don't really give a shit.  he was a casualty of war (which he initially declared).  also, one usually doesn't give assassination targets a trial.  besides, a trial is just one more bill america would have to shoulder while the rest of the world screams about how his trial isn't fair enough, and how america didnt have the right to play jury.  

[Shock G]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

It was a kill capture mission, if he even made the slightest hint of a threatening action he would be shot, that is the standard ROE (rules of engagement).  These are not police officers they are SEALS and their own safety is paramount in such a mission.

Also as has been mentioned he declared war on the US and then committed what would be considered acts of war, legally there can be an argument that the US was within their rights even if they just wanted to shoot him as he was a combatant.  This gives the military the authority to kill even if they are not actively firing on you.

See Agnoistes posts above she hit all the big points on what he did so no need for me to rehash it.  Like her I'm no hawk but this is the sort of thing we should be doing instead of large scale wars that do little yet cost enormous sums of money.

[Agonistes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpP7b2lUxVE

I'm 31 - I remember perfectly well and I remember the hate I felt that day.
but
I also remember your Presidents idiotic self motivated reaction which killed 4 times as many Iraqi and Afghan civilians.

Don't mistake any of my words for pro Taliban feeling because I think they are evil, they subjugate women and have brutal methods of controlling communities.

I just think America needs to be more careful in it's actions accross the world.

Europe sang feed the world
America sang we are the world.
no, no you are not.  

bush wasn't my president.  he cheated in an election, twice.

america couldn't be more careful in its actions across the world, especially in this instance.  thanks to bush's dumb ass, whom i am slightly surprised wasn't hiding out with osama, there is no way we can do a damn thing on any soil but our own without getting condemned for it.

and no, we're not the world.  we're just whom the world calls to clean up its disasters and give it money when its companies go belly-up.  and, europe sang 'feed the world' while apartheid was alive and well.  just sayin.

[N.U.]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/8hGvQtumNAY" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/8hGvQtumNAY</a>
"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg?

I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives.

You don't want the truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall.

We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand at post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

[imaginary friend]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

you just mentioned it, so well done.

here's my reply: fuck him.

#@!

[N.U.]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

Guess what? Us ugly Americans (the ones older than 25 or so) really don't give a flying fuck. Maybe you non-German speaking Europeans would benefit from a nice helping of 20th Century history, since, if the US didn't step in when it did, all of Western Europe would be speaking German, Great Britain included.

Don't insist we have to do something and then balk at the manner in which we do it.

[Noosha]

Maybe you non-German speaking Europeans would benefit from a nice helping of 20th Century history, since, if the US didn't step in when it did, all of Western Europe would be speaking German, Great Britain included.

Ha ha!

Wondered how long it would take for that old chesnut to appear!!

[JohnnyDBBUK]

Personally I love Germans, especially the DBBoG who quite frankly are some of the best Cats to ever grace the Shadowbox  



Hitler was a dick though and I am sure they would agree with me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2aSiCAcBfM&feature=related

ps America joined WW2 at the tail end so don't claim to have done it all, you just joined the battle fresh faced and ready to do the cavalry charge.

Fuck War, Fuck Politics, Vive Punk Cabaret, oh and fuck cheering on murder
all human life is sacred imo and any I believe anyone can change their evil ways and if they don't well put them in Jail and punish them for being evil.

[N.U.]

Really? Then you've obviously never met a zealot. Zealots won't change because they don't recognize they're in the wrong. How does one rehabilitate someone who doesn't even view their actions as being wrong? You don't. Most times, zealots merely have bad ideas and aren't harmful to the larger collective. The truly dangerous ones are the ones like OBL (need I list the man's resume again?), Pol Pot(The Killing Fields), and Jim Jones(Jonestown Massacre). They have no regard for human lives beyond their own. No compassion for those weaker than themselves. They're not humans in my worldview anymore. They're mad dogs, and mad dogs get put down, not given second chances.

I implore you to re-read WWII history as you obviously got the Cliff's Notes version of events.

[JohnnyDBBUK]

Really? Then you've obviously never met a zealot. Zealots won't change because they don't recognize they're in the wrong. How does one rehabilitate someone who doesn't even view their actions as being wrong? You don't. Most times, zealots merely have bad ideas and aren't harmful to the larger collective. The truly dangerous ones are the ones like OBL (need I list the man's resume again?), Pol Pot(The Killing Fields), and Jim Jones(Jonestown Massacre). They have no regard for human lives beyond their own. No compassion for those weaker than themselves. They're not humans in my worldview anymore. They're mad dogs, and mad dogs get put down, not given second chances.

I implore you to re-read WWII history as you obviously got the Cliff's Notes version of events.

Eddie Izzard taught me about WW2
Anyone's behaviour can be modified, have you never read about Pavlov's Human?
 

I'm just winding you up now, I have realised I cannot change your viewpoint. See above in bold

[N.U.]

It's not that I'm right. It's that you're wrong in the most naive way possible. You don't even know enough to recognize that.

[JohnnyDBBUK]

It's not that I'm right. It's that you're wrong in the most naive way possible. You don't even know enough to recognize that.

urface is naive  
or maybe I just have different ethics to you.



Suddenly, KITTEN

[N.U.]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

I really don't see the issue.

[Savannah]

lol

[N.U.]

that's brilliant!

[The Angel Raliel]

basically the issue is that america decided to do a quite open assassination rather than use the law and justice to get things done......I agree that there probably was not a clean way of doing this...but AGAIN if the west wants to be seen as the worlds saviours then we better start acting like it, rather than acting like the biggest and nastiest kid in the playground.......
essentially a bunch of US soldiers murdered a bunch of people and call it justice......not the sort of justice we should be marketing considering the state of things in the world right now

[Agonistes]

Maybe you non-German speaking Europeans would benefit from a nice helping of 20th Century history, since, if the US didn't step in when it did, all of Western Europe would be speaking German, Great Britain included.

Ha ha!

Wondered how long it would take for that old chesnut to appear!!

still wondering how long it will take for the ones who owe that debt to recognize it for what it is, frankly, or realize that we didn't want to get involved.  we got involved at the end because we had to.  we always get involved when we have to.  and, clearly, we always do it wrong.


i have three things to say at this point.

1)  all human life is NOT sacred.  while it probably should be, it isn't, because nothing is intrinsically 'sacred.'  a lion's not going to thinktwice about swiping off a human head just because it is human.  nature does not worship, or hold anything dear.  while holding something sacred might be admirable, it's also the same trap one falls into when declaring holy war, frankly.  some people make their own lives worthless by their actions:  case in point.

2)  religion once again remains the highest murder motive of all time.  i would add to that that we aren't the ones who ever said 'the sun never sets on the american empire.'  none of our force application nor bombs nor rushing in at the last minute to save the day has ever resulted in america claiming one single inch of land for themselves (hey, england?  remember the crusades?).  granted, we're a young country, but, there you have it.  no one country that is criticizing us hasn't got a checkered past...some of them REEEEAAALLLY checkered.  in comparison, this was a fucking night at the opera.

3)  a wartime killing is not murder.  never has been.  never will be.

[Tiervexx]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

Guess what? Us ugly Americans (the ones older than 25 or so) really don't give a flying fuck. Maybe you non-German speaking Europeans would benefit from a nice helping of 20th Century history, since, if the US didn't step in when it did, all of Western Europe would be speaking German, Great Britain included.

Don't insist we have to do something and then balk at the manner in which we do it.

As another ugly American who is over 25 I want to make a few points.

1)  Using our help in WWII as a bat every time a European disagrees with what the US does is very, very, very, very very, VERY lame.  One good deed does not justify any number of wrongs.  That is just shitty logic.

2)  I'm not sold on the idea that Germany could have taken Great Britain.  The brits were having trouble but that island is extremely easy to defend.  I think it would have been a stalemate.  They would not have taken Switzerland either.  Maybe not Finland or Sweden as well.

3)  Nazi economic planning basically consisted of just pumping huge amounts of cash into the economy.  Anyone educated in economics knows that this is a quick fix that is not sustainable when done on the scale that they were doing it on.  Not to mention it is likely someone would have eventually succeeded in killing Hitler and bring down the Nazi regime from within.  I think that the collapse of Nazi Germany was inevitable even if the US had not gotten involved for one reason or another.

4)  I hate US foreign policy.  We've killed a lot of civilians in our recent and early histories.  Yes we've killed some very bad people but it is perfectly valid to say that sometimes we give ourselves enemies when we stick our nose where it does not belong.  WWI was a perfect example of us sticking our nose where it does not belong.  I can understand wanting to stop the Nazis but WWI was basically just a dick waving contest between the European leaders and we did not need to get involved.  George Carlin's bit about how wars just consist of men waving their dicks around is more true than it should be.

5) All that said, Bin Laden was a bad man who absolutely did not give a shit if he killed civilians so I'm glad he's dead even if I don't feel inclined to throw a party about it.  I'm happy we sent men to kill him but I think we could have done that without sticking our nose in Iraq again.  And without drawing out the war in Afghanistan.

6)  I think AQ's ideology is dying out.  Much of the Arab world is moving towards democracy and wants to move out of their medieval age.

[Morpheus Laughing]

I think that the US would later have paid dearly for not intervening in WWII when they did (based on the assumption that complete occupation was inevitable). Good for Europe that the US did get involved but I don’t believe that anyone could have slept easily once Hitler had finished gathering up Europe. If no later wars followed, can you imagine having to do the diplomacy thing with Hitler after all that had happened?

Agonistes:

Before I begin, I just want to say that I have no idea how this will be read in the context of the thread because I can't judge the heat.

'  a lion's not going to thinktwice about swiping off a human head just because it is human.  nature does not worship, or hold anything dear.

Nature is really crappy though…  Law, law, not tooth and claw. Circumvent the lion gore.

2)  religion once again remains the highest murder motive of all time.  i would add to that that we aren't the ones who ever said 'the sun never sets on the american empire.'  none of our force application nor bombs nor rushing in at the last minute to save the day has ever resulted in america claiming one single inch of land for themselves (hey, england?  remember the crusades?).  granted, we're a young country, but, there you have it.  no one country that is criticizing us hasn't got a checkered past...some of them REEEEAAALLLY checkered.  in comparison, this was a fucking night at the opera.

Religion is where people look for solutions when they can’t extract solutions from life at source. There’s a lot of crazy in religious fundamentalism but it’s not surprising that people pick the games they can “win” when they have little fighting chance of rationally putting away the fears/deprivations/pressures that surround their lives...

 + Empire as a national hobby (so to speak) was never just about taking land. Land is but one of a number of desirable resources that a nation can take and utilise. The US has land-a-plenty and imported the man power to generate goods and infrastructure. Note: I know the slavery thing is sensitive & I’m not having a dig – What I’m saying is that resources (tradable value) are either discovered or generated via work and a great many of our ancestors were happy to take what others had produced.   

a wartime killing is not murder.  never has been.  never will be.

It’s more about legality and adhering to protocol though.  I don’t know the details so I can’t say anything about how self-consistent they were in that respect.

Final note: None of the above is said in patriotic-finger-wagging-tone. The majority of human beings of any nation (or as a species) are an embarrassment. I can’t show my cat my human race card lest I get flustered. 

[N.U.]

You all should be rejoicing. The Emmanuel Goldstein of our age was actually killed, meaning a shift in direction away from an Orwellian conclusion; something the last administration seemed content in pushing toward.

[Agonistes]

I think that the US would later have paid dearly for not intervening in WWII when they did (based on the assumption that complete occupation was inevitable). Good for Europe that the US did get involved but I don’t believe that anyone could have slept easily once Hitler had finished gathering up Europe. If no later wars followed, can you imagine having to do the diplomacy thing with Hitler after all that had happened?

Agonistes:

Before I begin, I just want to say that I have no idea how this will be read in the context of the thread because I can't judge the heat.

'  a lion's not going to thinktwice about swiping off a human head just because it is human.  nature does not worship, or hold anything dear.

Nature is really crappy though…  Law, law, not tooth and claw. Circumvent the lion gore.

2)  religion once again remains the highest murder motive of all time.  i would add to that that we aren't the ones who ever said 'the sun never sets on the american empire.'  none of our force application nor bombs nor rushing in at the last minute to save the day has ever resulted in america claiming one single inch of land for themselves (hey, england?  remember the crusades?).  granted, we're a young country, but, there you have it.  no one country that is criticizing us hasn't got a checkered past...some of them REEEEAAALLLY checkered.  in comparison, this was a fucking night at the opera.

Religion is where people look for solutions when they can’t extract solutions from life at source. There’s a lot of crazy in religious fundamentalism but it’s not surprising that people pick the games they can “win” when they have little fighting chance of rationally putting away the fears/deprivations/pressures that surround their lives...

 + Empire as a national hobby (so to speak) was never just about taking land. Land is but one of a number of desirable resources that a nation can take and utilise. The US has land-a-plenty and imported the man power to generate goods and infrastructure. Note: I know the slavery thing is sensitive & I’m not having a dig – What I’m saying is that resources (tradable value) are either discovered or generated via work and a great many of our ancestors were happy to take what others had produced.   

a wartime killing is not murder.  never has been.  never will be.

It’s more about legality and adhering to protocol though.  I don’t know the details so I can’t say anything about how self-consistent they were in that respect.

Final note: None of the above is said in patriotic-finger-wagging-tone. The majority of human beings of any nation (or as a species) are an embarrassment. I can’t show my cat my human race card lest I get flustered. 

lest i come across as a gun-waving redneck, i should probably state myself that i'm anything but patriotic.  i can't even begin to get started on the problems i with our own infrastructure.  i know we're douches when it comes to foreign policy.  and, i know the human race as a whole is pretty ugly when the layers of civilization, thin as they might get, are peeled away.

which is probably why it touches a nerve for me to hear a flip condemnation of an action that seems pretty serious to me.  or even a suggestion that we 'should have' done something so self-destructive that the cost alone is difficult to configure.  there really isn't room for political correctness in war, and if anything, as much as i want PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN and HEAD ON PIKE, this is probably the first action of obama's i've actually admired; the way he handled this demise; quietly confirm it, dump body, end of story till backlash calms down.  it's uncharacteristic of america, and it's actually rather classy of us, i think.  we'll get the pictures eventually; they are known to exist.  they will be released or more likely 'leaked' when this isn't yesterday's news anymore.  

had it been bush, he would have dragged the body through the streets, from new york to l.a.  

incidentally, i didn't mean to imply land as the focal empirical goal; by 'land' i mean basically planting a flag (and yes, i know we do that all the damn time).  i'm not counting what corporations do because i don't consider them part of the political process, even though they have become just exactly that.

[CeeGBee]

basically the issue is that america decided to do a quite open assassination rather than use the law and justice to get things done......I agree that there probably was not a clean way of doing this...but AGAIN if the west wants to be seen as the worlds saviours then we better start acting like it, rather than acting like the biggest and nastiest kid in the playground.......
essentially a bunch of US soldiers murdered a bunch of people and call it justice......not the sort of justice we should be marketing considering the state of things in the world right now

Okay, let's see.....
Scenario 1: US goes to Pakistan's security forces, says "We know where Osama is, we want your
permission to go in and arrest him."  Pakistan says "Sure, we hate that bastard, where is he?"
Next day, Cops show up at the door, find a 'room to let' sign and no sign of previous occupant.

Okay, that doesn't work.

So let's fudge on the legalities just a smidge, to allow for infiltration of Pakistan's government and
military/police by unfriendly elements - Scenario 2: US commandos still sneak in, but instead of just
blowing his head off, they use magickal knock-out gas and arrest him "you have the right to remain
silent....." and all....

After some passage of time, a show-trial is convened wherein a jury or judicial panel of some sort
tells us what we already knew - Osama hates the US and proudly claims responsibility for inciting
and planning the murder of thousands of Americans, American allies, and other people who just made
him unhappy.  Like Saddam, he is hanged in front of the TV cameras.

Of course, in the meantime, several hundred people of various nationalities, ranks, and degrees of
involvment (housewives to soldiers to junior government officials) are kidnapped by Osama-sympathisers,
then murdered when he swings (or, to appease the anti-death-penalty types, that same approximate
number every year he remains in prison unless/until he dies or someone breaks him out)...

How has this served any greater purpose?

It maybe also worth noting that Osama's conception of a lawful trial, were circumstances somehow
reversed, is very different from what we might consider, with the outcome no less pre-ordained.

[Andy Pants]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

i've heard he was unarmed, and i've also heard he fired a shot and refused to surrender his weapon, while hiding behind one of his wives.  also, it's irresponsible to have your kid nearby when you are at war.

either way, i don't really give a shit.  he was a casualty of war (which he initially declared).  also, one usually doesn't give assassination targets a trial.  besides, a trial is just one more bill america would have to shoulder while the rest of the world screams about how his trial isn't fair enough, and how america didnt have the right to play jury.  

The truth is that's exactly what I expected someone to say.

The bullshit about him being armed and hiding behind his wife is BS propaganda by the way, but I think you probably knew that already.

They were only to arrest him if they could be sure he wasn't wearing a suicide vest i.e. if he was naked, so it was an assassination. I just wish the American government would own up and call it an assassination.

Also, his daughter was there because his family lived with him in his home, so I have no idea what you mean when you say 'it's irresponsible to have your kid nearby when you are at war'. Should retired American combat troops not be allowed to live with their families? He wasn't an active member of Al Qaeda anymore so he was essentially retired. If he committed a war crime whilst he was actually at war (which I'm not disputing), he should have been tried. I agree with CeeGBee that the process would have been arbitrary and the conclusion obvious, but if we don't respect the process of law then the process of law becomes meaningless and anarchy prevails.

But I forget sometimes that the Geneva convention is meaningless now and that justice is simply determined by the whim of whoever has the fanciest guns.

With the American economy going the way it is I wonder who will have the fanciest guns in a couple of decades time, but you're completely right, who really gives a fuck  

[The Angel Raliel]

WW2 the US did not save us in Europe.....they played a part as did everyone else.....the war in the pacific against Japan WAS mainly American led and Britain plus the Antipodeans did a LOT of helping out.....oh that war was stopped by america killing an awful lot of civilians to make a point...Japan could have decided to send a group of assasins to kill the US president for his ordering the mass murder of civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki...they did not

[The Angel Raliel]

as a final note from me...I know that many of you disagree with me.....I do not have the right answers and I am pretty sure things could have been a lot worse, however my point is that we should learn from our barbaric pasts and IF we are going to involve ourselves in the politics and affairs of other Nations, we have to do so with responsibility and care....not a gung ho bullying attitude

[lentower]

Also peeps, I'm pretty sure the Soviets would have defeated the Germans with or without Americas practically inconsequential involvement. Try reading a book sometime.

true. 

and all of europe would have been communist satellite states,
and much of africa.

the most foolish thing Hilter did was invade Russia

the most foolish thing Japan did was attack Pearl Harbor

[The Angel Raliel]

Ahem...there is SOME evidence to support that Britain knew about pearl Harbour well before it happened...( my gran used to work in a rather specialised part of the war room and corresponded officially with Japanese officers).....it may well have been a tool to tip America's hand and get them to help out in the war in europe..... after all the US was Neutral and even somewhat biased towards germany for the first part of the war

[CeeGBee]

Ahem...there is SOME evidence to support that Britain knew about pearl Harbour well before it happened...( my gran used to work in a rather specialised part of the war room and corresponded officially with Japanese officers).....it may well have been a tool to tip America's hand and get them to help out in the war in europe..... after all the US was Neutral and even somewhat biased towards germany for the first part of the war

Now if you wanna get into serious conspiracy theories......
I have always somewhat suspected that US 'neutrality', and the precise manner in which it was
ended, was carefully calculated - by Roosevelt, in consultation with Churchill - to maximise the
damage that the Nazis and the Communists could do to each other.  For all of the death and
devastation it caused, the outcome of the Pacific War was inevitable - Japan couldn't disable
American industry, nor keep up with it.  They were doomed by simple attrition.

Of course, there are innumerable reasons why such cooperation, 'conspiracy' if you will, can
never be discussed openly, but it would explain a lot of things.


(Andohbythewaybacktotheoriginaltopic - Remember that bit in "Saving Private Ryan" where Private
Jackson, the sniper, said "if you was to put me and this here sniper rifle anywhere up to and including
one mile of Adolf Hitler with a clear line of sight, sir... pack your bags, fellas, war's over. Amen."
Now, I don't seem to recall seeing Schickelgruber carrying a rifle [or even wearing a ceremonial knife
most of the time].  Is that a problem?)

[Agonistes]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

i've heard he was unarmed, and i've also heard he fired a shot and refused to surrender his weapon, while hiding behind one of his wives.  also, it's irresponsible to have your kid nearby when you are at war.

either way, i don't really give a shit.  he was a casualty of war (which he initially declared).  also, one usually doesn't give assassination targets a trial.  besides, a trial is just one more bill america would have to shoulder while the rest of the world screams about how his trial isn't fair enough, and how america didnt have the right to play jury.  

The truth is that's exactly what I expected someone to say.

The bullshit about him being armed and hiding behind his wife is BS propaganda by the way, but I think you probably knew that already.

They were only to arrest him if they could be sure he wasn't wearing a suicide vest i.e. if he was naked, so it was an assassination. I just wish the American government would own up and call it an assassination.

Also, his daughter was there because his family lived with him in his home, so I have no idea what you mean when you say 'it's irresponsible to have your kid nearby when you are at war'. Should retired American combat troops not be allowed to live with their families? He wasn't an active member of Al Qaeda anymore so he was essentially retired. If he committed a war crime whilst he was actually at war (which I'm not disputing), he should have been tried. I agree with CeeGBee that the process would have been arbitrary and the conclusion obvious, but if we don't respect the process of law then the process of law becomes meaningless and anarchy prevails.

But I forget sometimes that the Geneva convention is meaningless now and that justice is simply determined by the whim of whoever has the fanciest guns.

With the American economy going the way it is I wonder who will have the fanciest guns in a couple of decades time, but you're completely right, who really gives a fuck  

a trial would have been fine if the middle eastern governments he'd been hiding under here and there had happily handed him over, but that's not the case.  dude; you don't just get to declare war and then 'retire.'  he was at war; retirement does not absolve one from being marked for death.  number one, it doesn't work that way in a jihad; terrorists don't 'retire.'  they go out with a bang.  moreover, you don't kill five thousand people, and then move to the suburbs and therefore remain untouchable because you say, 'oh, i quit that crazy al-quaida.'  it just plain doesn't work that way.  he wasn't  'at his home.'  he was in hiding, because he was at war.  he's been hunted for a decade.  read his texts, man, HE is the one who called it a war ('jihad' means 'holy war') in the first place.  he marked himself for death by claiming responsibility for the greatest terrorist act probably ever, which wont be duplicated for several hundred years, i'm willing to bet.  but, you're an idiot if you think you can kill five thousand people of any nationality and just....retire.  you have to have been a u.s. president for that (incidentally, i believe george bush deserves the same fate, so yeah).

also, he did not observe the geneva rules, which i am pretty sure have something to do with not flying hijacked planes into buildings full of civilians and firefighters.  since his act of war was less formal and had nothing to do with rules of engagement, why should we respect his 'right' for his brains to remain inside his head?  he is the one who made sure his family was near him, knowing he was the highest profile target in the world at the moment.  yes, target.  in fact he made sure he WAS the highest profile target in the world.  and still kept his family close, the ones that would allow it, that is.  most of his actual family had already disowned him--publicly, that is.

no country would have tried extraditing or trial after that much time hunting for someone, that much money spent, and that many people dead.  not to mention the expense and peril of transporting the sonofabitch to wherever it was we would have taken him and tried to protect him from our own people.  not to mention HIS people trying to rescue him in their particular idiom.  the suicide bombers alone rushing the convoy would be both hilarious and tragic.  not to mention, how are you going to pay a bunch of americans to protect a guy they would happily shoot, themselves?  while it would be admirable to spend god knows how much more money on a 'trial' that has an obvious result, are you cool with more terrorists exacting revenge to try to get us to release him?  it's not your country under the microscope, but i damn sure bet if it was, americans would be helping you guys hunt down the bastard.

also, the geneva convention is generally useless during a war.  not that it's ever been useful to have rules as to how to fight a war, but there you have it.  i don't feel the need to expand on how stupid it is to have wars with rules, because war is not politically correct, nor is it ever fought by rules when it gets into the trenches.  never has been, never will be.


edit:  the american government won't call it an assassination, because the american government does not train or condone assassins, officially.  of course you and i both know that's bullshit, every country has a handful of guys to do dirty work, but e're not allowed to admit it because then the other countries all get mad and fuss.  also, if you would like our, and other, governments to tell the truth all the time and not do this 'publicity dance of lies,' i guess wish in one hand and shit in the other, and see which hand fills up the fastest.

[CeeGBee]

[boring historian interpretation]
I would have to call [ahem] strategic bombing in WW2 'the greatest terrorist act ever'.

Whole cities were devastated, with no direct military objective but to undermine the enemy
civilian population's support for the war effort.  Textbook terrorism, and both the Allies and
the Axis did it.  The atom bombs were the ultimate expression of the idea, and could well be
argued to have achieved the desired end.
[/nerdy historian]

[lentower]

Ahem...there is SOME evidence to support that Britain knew about pearl Harbour well before it happened...( my gran used to work in a rather specialised part of the war room and corresponded officially with Japanese officers).....it may well have been a tool to tip America's hand and get them to help out in the war in europe..... after all the US was Neutral and even somewhat biased towards germany for the first part of the war

* there is SOME evidence to support most theories.  there were quite a few people in the US who expected Pearl Harbor.

* you speak as if the US was monolithic.  this is not true of any country, but even more so the US.

* the major thing that keep the US out of the war, was that WWI had convinced enough Americans to not get involved in foreign wars.  some Americans were pro-British, some anti-Axis, some pro-German, etc.

* one of the brilliant moves Stalin made, when Hitler invaded, was to pack up all the factories and machine tools he could, and move them via rail west of the Urals, out of the Nazi's reach.  Which allowed him to build the weapons needed to fight the Nazi's, and not wait for shipments form the US.  Stalin also deeply resented how long it took the Allies to invade Western Europe.  He felt that the Soviet Military took most of the deaths and injuries, because the rest of the Allies waited.

[Shock G]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

Guess what? Us ugly Americans (the ones older than 25 or so) really don't give a flying fuck. Maybe you non-German speaking Europeans would benefit from a nice helping of 20th Century history, since, if the US didn't step in when it did, all of Western Europe would be speaking German, Great Britain included.

Don't insist we have to do something and then balk at the manner in which we do it.

As another ugly American who is over 25 I want to make a few points.

1)  Using our help in WWII as a bat every time a European disagrees with what the US does is very, very, very, very very, VERY lame.  One good deed does not justify any number of wrongs.  That is just shitty logic.

2)  I'm not sold on the idea that Germany could have taken Great Britain.  The brits were having trouble but that island is extremely easy to defend.  I think it would have been a stalemate.  They would not have taken Switzerland either.  Maybe not Finland or Sweden as well.

3)  Nazi economic planning basically consisted of just pumping huge amounts of cash into the economy.  Anyone educated in economics knows that this is a quick fix that is not sustainable when done on the scale that they were doing it on.  Not to mention it is likely someone would have eventually succeeded in killing Hitler and bring down the Nazi regime from within.  I think that the collapse of Nazi Germany was inevitable even if the US had not gotten involved for one reason or another.

4)  I hate US foreign policy.  We've killed a lot of civilians in our recent and early histories.  Yes we've killed some very bad people but it is perfectly valid to say that sometimes we give ourselves enemies when we stick our nose where it does not belong.  WWI was a perfect example of us sticking our nose where it does not belong.  I can understand wanting to stop the Nazis but WWI was basically just a dick waving contest between the European leaders and we did not need to get involved.  George Carlin's bit about how wars just consist of men waving their dicks around is more true than it should be.

5) All that said, Bin Laden was a bad man who absolutely did not give a shit if he killed civilians so I'm glad he's dead even if I don't feel inclined to throw a party about it.  I'm happy we sent men to kill him but I think we could have done that without sticking our nose in Iraq again.  And without drawing out the war in Afghanistan.

6)  I think AQ's ideology is dying out.  Much of the Arab world is moving towards democracy and wants to move out of their medieval age.

1)  Our help in WWII went well beyond the declarations of war.

2)  They could have if Hitler did not switch from bombing the RAF/military sites to the civilians, he had the RAF almost beat which would have lead to air dominance by the Luftwaffe and with that they could win a battle there.  And a major reason the UK was able to stand even that long was massive amounts of supplies from the US and the lend/lease program.

3)  Those happened more as the Nazi's started losing and people didn't want to be dragged down with Hitler meaning a large part was self preservation and not idealogical, while he was winning on all fronts there wasn't much discontent due to most major parties who had those feelings being killed (the SA if you remember was killed in the night of the long knives) or put into concentration camps.

4)  That isolationist view can have some merit but the idea of a Germany so dominant also was not good for US interests and a key ally in the UK was in there so we did have some skin in the game.

5)  I think 90% of the US believes we didn't need to go into Iraq now.

6)  Yup, it will still be influenced by Islam most likely as we are seeing in Egypt but the question is how far does that go and we don't know.  It could mean laws closer to Sharia or a situation like in the US where we have some laws based on Christian dogma.

[Shock G]

basically the issue is that america decided to do a quite open assassination rather than use the law and justice to get things done......I agree that there probably was not a clean way of doing this...but AGAIN if the west wants to be seen as the worlds saviours then we better start acting like it, rather than acting like the biggest and nastiest kid in the playground.......
essentially a bunch of US soldiers murdered a bunch of people and call it justice......not the sort of justice we should be marketing considering the state of things in the world right now

1)  As a combatant he was fair game even if the US just wanted to launch a missile at him, since he formally has declared war on the US and committed multiple acts of war this would hold up rather easily.

2)  And since you agree there was not a clean way of doing this what is your option?  Where is this huge stink you are trying to make if you can not come up with one?  The idea of going into a heavily fortified complex like Bin Laden was in and having to hesitate or an ROE of not firing till fired upon is a joke.  So you can either:

A)  Go in guns blazing since any other option puts your members at risk and taking Bin Laden alive was not the biggest concerned as a combatant.

B)  Use a drone to blow him up, but then you might not have confirmation it was him and just attacked a place deep inside of Pakistan, not a good move strategically since they will be pissed.  While Pakistan can be pissed off at what happened the fact that we caught Bin Laden next to a Pakistani military base puts enough shame on them that they can't make much of a stink.

[N.U.]

Dan Carlin's Tales of the Osterreich is a phenomenal accounting of the Soviet's defense of their homeland. I highly recommend you history buffs to give it a listen. It definitely will change your perception of the Soviet strategy.

FDR's New Deal had been dismantled by the Supreme Cort for being unconstitutional, the US still hadn't pulled clear of the Great Depression, and there was a large Isolationist movement in the US. It would not be surprising to me that Pearl Harbor was a LIHOP (acronym for Let It Happen On Purpose).

Great Britain was being led by Churchill into war, while many from the Houses of Lords and the Royal Family itself (like Edward the VII, who had abdicated a few years earlier) were definitely Nazi sympathizers (why do you think he got shipped off as the Governor of the Bahamas; it kept him and his opinions away from the public at large). Additionally, the Nazi Blitz paired with the unrestricted submarine warfare on civilian cargo transports had the effect of a medieval siege. Facing capitulation by starvation, all the while having the best intelligence network in the world (the United States' OSS* was patterned after British intelligence), Churchill probably worked with FDR to get the US into the war on the UK's side as it would solve both of their problems.

Why else do you think that we committed to the European/African front first even though we were at war with Japan first?

*OSS was the precursor to the CIA

[Shock G]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

i've heard he was unarmed, and i've also heard he fired a shot and refused to surrender his weapon, while hiding behind one of his wives.  also, it's irresponsible to have your kid nearby when you are at war.

either way, i don't really give a shit.  he was a casualty of war (which he initially declared).  also, one usually doesn't give assassination targets a trial.  besides, a trial is just one more bill america would have to shoulder while the rest of the world screams about how his trial isn't fair enough, and how america didnt have the right to play jury.  

The truth is that's exactly what I expected someone to say.

The bullshit about him being armed and hiding behind his wife is BS propaganda by the way, but I think you probably knew that already.

They were only to arrest him if they could be sure he wasn't wearing a suicide vest i.e. if he was naked, so it was an assassination. I just wish the American government would own up and call it an assassination.

Also, his daughter was there because his family lived with him in his home, so I have no idea what you mean when you say 'it's irresponsible to have your kid nearby when you are at war'. Should retired American combat troops not be allowed to live with their families? He wasn't an active member of Al Qaeda anymore so he was essentially retired. If he committed a war crime whilst he was actually at war (which I'm not disputing), he should have been tried. I agree with CeeGBee that the process would have been arbitrary and the conclusion obvious, but if we don't respect the process of law then the process of law becomes meaningless and anarchy prevails.

But I forget sometimes that the Geneva convention is meaningless now and that justice is simply determined by the whim of whoever has the fanciest guns.

With the American economy going the way it is I wonder who will have the fanciest guns in a couple of decades time, but you're completely right, who really gives a fuck  

 

They didn't say it was an attempt to arrest him, it was a kill/capture mission so unless they know for sure it is safe to capture they kill.  It is pretty black and white and has been put out by the US government.

[Shock G]

WW2 the US did not save us in Europe.....they played a part as did everyone else.....the war in the pacific against Japan WAS mainly American led and Britain plus the Antipodeans did a LOT of helping out.....oh that war was stopped by america killing an awful lot of civilians to make a point...Japan could have decided to send a group of assasins to kill the US president for his ordering the mass murder of civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki...they did not

Yes the UK did so much with their natural resources.........

Oh wait do they have any local oil?

Much in the way of minerals or manufacturing not subject to Nazi bombing.

Or even ships to get the cargo there?

To protect enough convoys purely with the royal navy to get the materials to fight?

The US did not win the war on their own but without them yes the UK would have failed no question.  The liberty ships alone and the huge effort in US shipping as well as lend/lease gave the UK and USSR the tools/supplies they neded.

[Shock G]

Also peeps, I'm pretty sure the Soviets would have defeated the Germans with or without Americas practically inconsequential involvement. Try reading a book sometime.

true. 

and all of europe would have been communist satellite states,
and much of africa.

the most foolish thing Hilter did was invade Russia

the most foolish thing Japan did was attack Pearl Harbor

Hitler got within 100 miles of Moscow, without a western front or the supplies from the west the Soviet Union would have likely fallen.

[N.U.]

Before you say that, Shock, give a listen to my recommendation above.

[Shock G]

Before you say that, Shock, give a listen to my recommendation above.

The 100 miles part?

I've done a lot of research and know many who fought in "The Great Patriotic War" and know how crazy they fought for the rodina, but in many of the major battles a larger force from the Nazi's would have won.  The Russian army was largely conscripts who had next to no training which is why it took many times the number of Russian forces to win any of them.  If they could have concentrated on the Eastern front the number of Soviet troops needed to win against the better trained/equipt German's would have been more than they could have mustered.

[CeeGBee]

Before you say that, Shock, give a listen to my recommendation above.

The 100 miles part?

I've done a lot of research and know many who fought in "The Great Patriotic War" and know how crazy they fought for the rodina, but in many of the major battles a larger force from the Nazi's would have won.  The Russian army was largely conscripts who had next to no training which is why it took many times the number of Russian forces to win any of them.  If they could have concentrated on the Eastern front the number of Soviet troops needed to win against the better trained/equipt German's would have been more than they could have mustered.

One of very few areas where I feel like I actually have a solid knowledge, and not just a collection of random factoids...

Germany's war in Russia was in many ways similar to Japan's in the Pacific.  Like Japan, Germany needed oil, and even
after seizing supplies in Romania, they didn't have nearly enough.  Like Japan, they started the war with better-trained
men and better materiel, but they were unable to replace losses, and their enemy's equipment rapidly closed the quality
gap.  At the outset of operation Barbarossa, the German army was at its peak, while Stalin was busily executing his
officers in a fit of paranoia, and he hadn't even bothered to stockpile enough rifles (even pre-ww1 antiques) to equip all
of his soldiers.  By the end of '41 the Germans were short of men and equipment, nearly out of gas, and thoroughly
bogged down by the Russan Winter.  They mounted a new offensive in '42, but even then the Red Army had picked up
enough slack to make the Germans pay dearly for every inch. 
A hundred miles to Moscow? Could just as easily have been a thousand.  They couldn't get across the Volga, and they
never even reached the natural obstacle of the Caucasus.

By the time the western allies opened the second front in France, two years later, the Germans were fighting a delaying
defensive war in the East, and it was just a matter of time before the Soviets rolled right over them.


...and how did we get onto this subject?

[Agonistes]

...and how did we get onto this subject?

 http://youtu.be/4WgT9gy4zQA


it's where it always goes when america gets criticized for shooting guns in actual combat; i'm guilty, i served that volley as well.  it's the conversational First Line of Defense to say 'WELL WE BAILED YOUR ASSES OUT IN WW2' and then follows several pages of discussion about that, including hiroshima, did we know about pearl harbor, and suchlike.  i'm amazed no one has used the word, 'genocide' yet.  i'm also rather proud of this whole bunch for avoiding the conspiracy theories.

[Shock G]

Before you say that, Shock, give a listen to my recommendation above.

The 100 miles part?

I've done a lot of research and know many who fought in "The Great Patriotic War" and know how crazy they fought for the rodina, but in many of the major battles a larger force from the Nazi's would have won.  The Russian army was largely conscripts who had next to no training which is why it took many times the number of Russian forces to win any of them.  If they could have concentrated on the Eastern front the number of Soviet troops needed to win against the better trained/equipt German's would have been more than they could have mustered.

One of very few areas where I feel like I actually have a solid knowledge, and not just a collection of random factoids...

Germany's war in Russia was in many ways similar to Japan's in the Pacific.  Like Japan, Germany needed oil, and even
after seizing supplies in Romania, they didn't have nearly enough.  Like Japan, they started the war with better-trained
men and better materiel, but they were unable to replace losses, and their enemy's equipment rapidly closed the quality
gap.  At the outset of operation Barbarossa, the German army was at its peak, while Stalin was busily executing his
officers in a fit of paranoia, and he hadn't even bothered to stockpile enough rifles (even pre-ww1 antiques) to equip all
of his soldiers.  By the end of '41 the Germans were short of men and equipment, nearly out of gas, and thoroughly
bogged down by the Russan Winter.  They mounted a new offensive in '42, but even then the Red Army had picked up
enough slack to make the Germans pay dearly for every inch. 
A hundred miles to Moscow? Could just as easily have been a thousand.  They couldn't get across the Volga, and they
never even reached the natural obstacle of the Caucasus.

By the time the western allies opened the second front in France, two years later, the Germans were fighting a delaying
defensive war in the East, and it was just a matter of time before the Soviets rolled right over them.


...and how did we get onto this subject?

A little different as the Japanese in general had more experienced troops who had next to no fear (bonsai charges) but their equipment for land battles was lacking compared to the Americans even at the onset of the war.  Their pistols were junk, tanks were junk, machine guns were weird (fed by clips instead of belts), the bolt action rifle was decent as it is hard to mess that one up but used a smaller cartridge next to the m1903.  We on the other hand had the 1903 Springfield in the beginning backed up by the Browning 30 cal, M-2 50 cal, BAR, and M1 coming into service.

The Japanese had us outclassed in the air though which was big in the early part of the war.

As for the Germans if they were able to lock up the West (which is what this hypothetical history is based on) then it would have been over for Russia, the man power they needed was bogged down on the French coast waiting for an allied invasion as well as fighting in Africa.  If the UK fell they could have swept through Egypt and gotten oil reserves through the middle east.

And why....why not!  The box has been missing random threads like this which actually touch on current events/history.

[N.U.]

However, if we're talking about oddballs of history, we can't forget my favorite person from the American Revolution, Benedict Arnold; one of the most maligned historical figures.

[Shock G]

And the flash in the pan of a thread actually concerning real issues in the world is over.....poor shadowbox what has become of you  :'(

[N.U.]

Whadaya mean? This was really good for the SB.

Basically my point is I know my country's history. More importantly, I know that history is full of examples of leaders making difficult decisions that they were ridiculed later for even though they were the right call. I don't seen to recall this much outrage over the loss of life in the Coventry bombing; a bombing Churchill knew about well ahead of time, yet still let happen. Why? Because it was the right call. He could have saved a handful of lives, but it would have given away the tactical advantage of being able to read the Nazi's communications. That loss of life, while tragic, saved more lives than it lost.

To not recognize this simple fact will force you to either wear blinders the rest of your life or will lead you to a life of naive disappointment.

[CeeGBee]

...history is full of examples of leaders making difficult decisions that they were ridiculed
later for even though they were the right call...

I would have said history (especially recent American history, at least that I know of) is filled with examples
of the opposition party trying to spin ANYTHING a head of state does in the least-positive manner.  Can
you imagine the Democrats in 1945 calling Truman a war criminal for ordering the use of the first A-bombs?
....or, lacking the stones for that, simply saying it's no big deal since he didn't, himself, fly the missions?


Heads of state have made difficult decisions for as long as there have been heads of state, and because they
sometimes made the wrong calls, it's good to have someone in a position to look at actions with a critical eye,
but this grade-school everything-the-other-side-says-or-does-is-not-just-wrong-it's-evil (or it's anti-American
&c &c &c) bullshit has got to stop.

[The Angel Raliel]

true

[N.U.]

I'd expect no less from an America hater such as yourself... 

[CeeGBee]

Have you stopped beating your wife?



It's a simple yes/no question...
Why won't you answer? YES  or NO?   

Come to think of it, we'd better check your birth certificate too...

[N.U.]

LONG form!

[Agonistes]

mt birth certificate is bogus, a forgery.  what in gay hell am i supposed to do with that?

[CeeGBee]

LONG form!

Ask yer mom about my 'long form'.....   

[N.U.]

CeeG "Long Form" Bee?

[JohnnyDBBUK]

link to something that will end this once and for all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbRljNwZ7yU&feature=related

[CeeGBee]

link to something that will end this once and for all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbRljNwZ7yU&feature=related

Clearly those kittens attended al quaeda terrrrrist training camp....

[Agonistes]

link to something that will end this once and for all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbRljNwZ7yU&feature=related

Clearly those kittens attended al quaeda terrrrrist training camp....

,,,,,and are destroying a rainforest.  also, the owners have the roll on backwards.

[JohnnyDBBUK]

see we are all instantly friends again.
Kittens: masters of emotion control.

[Agonistes]

when were we not friends?  i just ran out of shit to say.


so the world is prejudiced against americans; so what.... people always resent the best.

[The Angel Raliel]

nope America is prejudiced against the world!

[Agonistes]

well, the world keeps not meeting our standards.

[Shock G]

well, the world keeps not meeting our standards.

Osama sure didn't meet his own:

[CeeGBee]

Hey look!  It's a non-story!

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't...  
Doesn't the Vatican have the world's largest porn library?  Or is that a myth? [edit: snopes says it's a myth.]

...but there's no way to verify, it could easily have been planted, and people are going to believe whatever they
fits their pre-existing notion of OBL, simply reinforced by [see, he had porn] or [see, the Americans planted porn].





Hey, didja see the topless pictures of Kate whats-her-name's sister?

[N.U.]

It fits from a standpoint that most leaders like this feel themselves to be above the rules that they apply to everyone else, but it also fits from a "Government wants to make sure this guy is viewed as this evil evil nebulous thing." and a "See? He wasn't so dangerous after-all. He had all the same weaknesses as everybody else."

Who knows what the truth is, not that it matters.

[CeeGBee]

It fits from a standpoint that most leaders like this feel themselves to be above the rules that they apply to everyone else, but it also fits from a "Government wants to make sure this guy is viewed as this evil evil nebulous thing." and a "See? He wasn't so dangerous after-all. He had all the same weaknesses as everybody else."

Who knows what the truth is, not that it matters.

It matters EVERY BIT as much as:



(...and you'll notice, she's not really topless at all.  Stupid tabloid headline-writers...    )

[The Angel Raliel]

no there were actual topless pictures somewhere.....News of the World I think but they have been eradicated from the web
and adult human male watches porn is really not news

[Agonistes]

who are they?

[CeeGBee]

who are they?

Who?  The people in the pic  above?

HER sister just married some prince or something,and [surprise] like every other moderately attractive
twenty-something (especially the ones who feel like they have something to prove cuz their stupid
sister is marrying some heir or prince or something), there are racy pix of her on the internet.

[Agonistes]

who are they?

Who?  The people in the pic  above?

HER sister just married some prince or something,and [surprise] like every other moderately attractive
twenty-something (especially the ones who feel like they have something to prove cuz their stupid
sister is marrying some heir or prince or something), there are racy pix of her on the internet.

lame, you mean she isn't even the one marrying the prince or something?  then who even gives a shit?

[Shock G]

who are they?

Who?  The people in the pic  above?

HER sister just married some prince or something,and [surprise] like every other moderately attractive
twenty-something (especially the ones who feel like they have something to prove cuz their stupid
sister is marrying some heir or prince or something), there are racy pix of her on the internet.

lame, you mean she isn't even the one marrying the prince or something?  then who even gives a shit?

See, Bin Laden's porn stash is more important!

[N.U.]

Porn Stache?

[Shock G]

Porn Stache?