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[imaginary friend]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

you just mentioned it, so well done.

here's my reply: fuck him.

#@!

[N.U.]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

Guess what? Us ugly Americans (the ones older than 25 or so) really don't give a flying fuck. Maybe you non-German speaking Europeans would benefit from a nice helping of 20th Century history, since, if the US didn't step in when it did, all of Western Europe would be speaking German, Great Britain included.

Don't insist we have to do something and then balk at the manner in which we do it.

[Noosha]

Maybe you non-German speaking Europeans would benefit from a nice helping of 20th Century history, since, if the US didn't step in when it did, all of Western Europe would be speaking German, Great Britain included.

Ha ha!

Wondered how long it would take for that old chesnut to appear!!

[JohnnyDBBUK]

Personally I love Germans, especially the DBBoG who quite frankly are some of the best Cats to ever grace the Shadowbox  



Hitler was a dick though and I am sure they would agree with me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2aSiCAcBfM&feature=related

ps America joined WW2 at the tail end so don't claim to have done it all, you just joined the battle fresh faced and ready to do the cavalry charge.

Fuck War, Fuck Politics, Vive Punk Cabaret, oh and fuck cheering on murder
all human life is sacred imo and any I believe anyone can change their evil ways and if they don't well put them in Jail and punish them for being evil.

[N.U.]

Really? Then you've obviously never met a zealot. Zealots won't change because they don't recognize they're in the wrong. How does one rehabilitate someone who doesn't even view their actions as being wrong? You don't. Most times, zealots merely have bad ideas and aren't harmful to the larger collective. The truly dangerous ones are the ones like OBL (need I list the man's resume again?), Pol Pot(The Killing Fields), and Jim Jones(Jonestown Massacre). They have no regard for human lives beyond their own. No compassion for those weaker than themselves. They're not humans in my worldview anymore. They're mad dogs, and mad dogs get put down, not given second chances.

I implore you to re-read WWII history as you obviously got the Cliff's Notes version of events.

[JohnnyDBBUK]

Really? Then you've obviously never met a zealot. Zealots won't change because they don't recognize they're in the wrong. How does one rehabilitate someone who doesn't even view their actions as being wrong? You don't. Most times, zealots merely have bad ideas and aren't harmful to the larger collective. The truly dangerous ones are the ones like OBL (need I list the man's resume again?), Pol Pot(The Killing Fields), and Jim Jones(Jonestown Massacre). They have no regard for human lives beyond their own. No compassion for those weaker than themselves. They're not humans in my worldview anymore. They're mad dogs, and mad dogs get put down, not given second chances.

I implore you to re-read WWII history as you obviously got the Cliff's Notes version of events.

Eddie Izzard taught me about WW2
Anyone's behaviour can be modified, have you never read about Pavlov's Human?
 

I'm just winding you up now, I have realised I cannot change your viewpoint. See above in bold

[N.U.]

It's not that I'm right. It's that you're wrong in the most naive way possible. You don't even know enough to recognize that.

[JohnnyDBBUK]

It's not that I'm right. It's that you're wrong in the most naive way possible. You don't even know enough to recognize that.

urface is naive  
or maybe I just have different ethics to you.



Suddenly, KITTEN

[N.U.]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

I really don't see the issue.

[Savannah]

lol

[N.U.]

that's brilliant!

[The Angel Raliel]

basically the issue is that america decided to do a quite open assassination rather than use the law and justice to get things done......I agree that there probably was not a clean way of doing this...but AGAIN if the west wants to be seen as the worlds saviours then we better start acting like it, rather than acting like the biggest and nastiest kid in the playground.......
essentially a bunch of US soldiers murdered a bunch of people and call it justice......not the sort of justice we should be marketing considering the state of things in the world right now

[Agonistes]

Maybe you non-German speaking Europeans would benefit from a nice helping of 20th Century history, since, if the US didn't step in when it did, all of Western Europe would be speaking German, Great Britain included.

Ha ha!

Wondered how long it would take for that old chesnut to appear!!

still wondering how long it will take for the ones who owe that debt to recognize it for what it is, frankly, or realize that we didn't want to get involved.  we got involved at the end because we had to.  we always get involved when we have to.  and, clearly, we always do it wrong.


i have three things to say at this point.

1)  all human life is NOT sacred.  while it probably should be, it isn't, because nothing is intrinsically 'sacred.'  a lion's not going to thinktwice about swiping off a human head just because it is human.  nature does not worship, or hold anything dear.  while holding something sacred might be admirable, it's also the same trap one falls into when declaring holy war, frankly.  some people make their own lives worthless by their actions:  case in point.

2)  religion once again remains the highest murder motive of all time.  i would add to that that we aren't the ones who ever said 'the sun never sets on the american empire.'  none of our force application nor bombs nor rushing in at the last minute to save the day has ever resulted in america claiming one single inch of land for themselves (hey, england?  remember the crusades?).  granted, we're a young country, but, there you have it.  no one country that is criticizing us hasn't got a checkered past...some of them REEEEAAALLLY checkered.  in comparison, this was a fucking night at the opera.

3)  a wartime killing is not murder.  never has been.  never will be.

[Tiervexx]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

Guess what? Us ugly Americans (the ones older than 25 or so) really don't give a flying fuck. Maybe you non-German speaking Europeans would benefit from a nice helping of 20th Century history, since, if the US didn't step in when it did, all of Western Europe would be speaking German, Great Britain included.

Don't insist we have to do something and then balk at the manner in which we do it.

As another ugly American who is over 25 I want to make a few points.

1)  Using our help in WWII as a bat every time a European disagrees with what the US does is very, very, very, very very, VERY lame.  One good deed does not justify any number of wrongs.  That is just shitty logic.

2)  I'm not sold on the idea that Germany could have taken Great Britain.  The brits were having trouble but that island is extremely easy to defend.  I think it would have been a stalemate.  They would not have taken Switzerland either.  Maybe not Finland or Sweden as well.

3)  Nazi economic planning basically consisted of just pumping huge amounts of cash into the economy.  Anyone educated in economics knows that this is a quick fix that is not sustainable when done on the scale that they were doing it on.  Not to mention it is likely someone would have eventually succeeded in killing Hitler and bring down the Nazi regime from within.  I think that the collapse of Nazi Germany was inevitable even if the US had not gotten involved for one reason or another.

4)  I hate US foreign policy.  We've killed a lot of civilians in our recent and early histories.  Yes we've killed some very bad people but it is perfectly valid to say that sometimes we give ourselves enemies when we stick our nose where it does not belong.  WWI was a perfect example of us sticking our nose where it does not belong.  I can understand wanting to stop the Nazis but WWI was basically just a dick waving contest between the European leaders and we did not need to get involved.  George Carlin's bit about how wars just consist of men waving their dicks around is more true than it should be.

5) All that said, Bin Laden was a bad man who absolutely did not give a shit if he killed civilians so I'm glad he's dead even if I don't feel inclined to throw a party about it.  I'm happy we sent men to kill him but I think we could have done that without sticking our nose in Iraq again.  And without drawing out the war in Afghanistan.

6)  I think AQ's ideology is dying out.  Much of the Arab world is moving towards democracy and wants to move out of their medieval age.

[Morpheus Laughing]

I think that the US would later have paid dearly for not intervening in WWII when they did (based on the assumption that complete occupation was inevitable). Good for Europe that the US did get involved but I don’t believe that anyone could have slept easily once Hitler had finished gathering up Europe. If no later wars followed, can you imagine having to do the diplomacy thing with Hitler after all that had happened?

Agonistes:

Before I begin, I just want to say that I have no idea how this will be read in the context of the thread because I can't judge the heat.

'  a lion's not going to thinktwice about swiping off a human head just because it is human.  nature does not worship, or hold anything dear.

Nature is really crappy though…  Law, law, not tooth and claw. Circumvent the lion gore.

2)  religion once again remains the highest murder motive of all time.  i would add to that that we aren't the ones who ever said 'the sun never sets on the american empire.'  none of our force application nor bombs nor rushing in at the last minute to save the day has ever resulted in america claiming one single inch of land for themselves (hey, england?  remember the crusades?).  granted, we're a young country, but, there you have it.  no one country that is criticizing us hasn't got a checkered past...some of them REEEEAAALLLY checkered.  in comparison, this was a fucking night at the opera.

Religion is where people look for solutions when they can’t extract solutions from life at source. There’s a lot of crazy in religious fundamentalism but it’s not surprising that people pick the games they can “win” when they have little fighting chance of rationally putting away the fears/deprivations/pressures that surround their lives...

 + Empire as a national hobby (so to speak) was never just about taking land. Land is but one of a number of desirable resources that a nation can take and utilise. The US has land-a-plenty and imported the man power to generate goods and infrastructure. Note: I know the slavery thing is sensitive & I’m not having a dig – What I’m saying is that resources (tradable value) are either discovered or generated via work and a great many of our ancestors were happy to take what others had produced.   

a wartime killing is not murder.  never has been.  never will be.

It’s more about legality and adhering to protocol though.  I don’t know the details so I can’t say anything about how self-consistent they were in that respect.

Final note: None of the above is said in patriotic-finger-wagging-tone. The majority of human beings of any nation (or as a species) are an embarrassment. I can’t show my cat my human race card lest I get flustered.