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[Shock G]

here we go....already causing anti western feelings openly in the middle east
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/May/02/Hamas-leader-condemns-Bin-Ladens-killing.ashx#axzz1LCbudz3n

Hamas?  They are one of the governments holding down their people while at the same time committing acts of terrorism, they would condemn any US action.  Those opinions that matter will be the average person on the street, not what other terrorist organizations think.

[The Angel Raliel]

umm actually they are the palestinians fed up[ of US and UN ignoring isreal stealing land and killing people..... they have a lot of clout with even reasonably non militant muslims in the middle east
Yes they are just as bad as the isreali terrorists that commit atrocities to the palestinians...and neither side is right at this point....however it is REAL

[CeeGBee]

here we go....already causing anti western feelings openly in the middle east
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/May/02/Hamas-leader-condemns-Bin-Ladens-killing.ashx#axzz1LCbudz3n

Hamas?  They are one of the governments holding down their people while at the same time committing acts of terrorism, they would condemn any US action.  Those opinions that matter will be the average person on the street, not what other terrorist organizations think.

I would have to dispute your use of "causing"......

It's more a question of a pre-existing political entity attempting to exploit the opportunity to inflame potential
anti-American sentiment in their base.  We will doubtless see the very same thing from the political Right here
in the US, just as soon as they can agree on a way to spin the story that doesn't make Obama look good, and
Bush by comparison to look lame and misdirected.  My early guess, they'll go with the "Look at Obama trying
to take credit for the actions of our brave soldiers who are still carrying on the mission Brave Leader George
'The Surge' Bush sent them on..."

[Speaking of their base, do I remember someone telling me that al qaeda means "the base"?]

...but it'll be a tough sell, and really I think they'd be best off if they just said "good job" then tried to pretend
it never happened.  They won't, of course - as Capt. Mal said of the Reavers, It's their way...

[Savannah]

umm actually they are the palestinians fed up[ of US and UN ignoring isreal stealing land and killing people..... they have a lot of clout with even reasonably non militant muslims in the middle east
Yes they are just as bad as the isreali terrorists that commit atrocities to the palestinians...and neither side is right at this point....however it is REAL

This is soo right. Both sides are passive agressive, keep attacking each other.

Well i try to be objective, the embargo is terrible, Palestinian children are not only orphaned but also starved to death. It's open to dispute which side is right.

[Shock G]

umm actually they are the palestinians fed up[ of US and UN ignoring isreal stealing land and killing people..... they have a lot of clout with even reasonably non militant muslims in the middle east
Yes they are just as bad as the isreali terrorists that commit atrocities to the palestinians...and neither side is right at this point....however it is REAL

I saw in the other thread you ignore international precedents when it comes to Israel, like forgetting about the legality of blockades in international waters.  It seems you have quite a large bias in that conflict especially with your language here.  Not to mention even Goldstone has retracted his accusations of war crimes against Israel, and says there is no question Hamas commits them.

You can try to rationalize your bias but collateral damage when attacking people firing rockets at civilians is very different than those firing those rockets or the recent event of an anti-tank rocket being fired at a school bus.  You can criticize Israel's use of force but to equate the 2 sides simply does not work.

Hamas is an obstacle to peace who has been keeping an iron grip on Gaza pissing off many who live there.  They won because the people were fed up with fatah yet got something worse in return, and when they wanted to change it Hamas then went to deny elections.  There needs to be that mechanism for change for peace and a 2 state solution.  Israel has it and even though Bibi is in power now with a largely right wing coalition all it takes is one election to change that and instantly Israel can be much more open and willing for peace, if things calm down Kadima will hopefully gain a majority of seats.

[The Angel Raliel]

truly not biased....but international politics not especially my strong point either....however it is true to say that Isreal IS commiting atrocities as is Palestine.....and understandable that muslims in the middle east will use this event as a justification of extremist beliefs and perhaps radicalise some who were not

[Shock G]

umm actually they are the palestinians fed up[ of US and UN ignoring isreal stealing land and killing people..... they have a lot of clout with even reasonably non militant muslims in the middle east
Yes they are just as bad as the isreali terrorists that commit atrocities to the palestinians...and neither side is right at this point....however it is REAL

This is soo right. Both sides are passive agressive, keep attacking each other.

Well i try to be objective, the embargo is terrible, Palestinian children are not only orphaned but also starved to death. It's open to dispute which side is right.

Hamas is not that passive in their aggression, shelling civilian settlements indiscriminately and firing directly on school buses crosses a line Israel is nowhere near.  This is not to minimize civilian deaths in Gaza/the west bank but one side is actively trying to cause as many as possible while the other is trying to reduce them.

Also as to Palestinians starving to death that is not the facts on the ground, there is food going into Gaza the issue with the Israeli restrictions that people brought up were the seemingly arbitrary banning of things like candy which have no military use (which is the reason why building materials/those to be used for weapons are closely monitored).

[The Angel Raliel]

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/

[Shock G]

truly not biased....but international politics not especially my strong point either....however it is true to say that Isreal IS commiting atrocities as is Palestine.....and understandable that muslims in the middle east will use this event as a justification of extremist beliefs and perhaps radicalise some who were not

You should do a lot more research into this and I don't mean this as an insult as many of the the fundamentalist groups while they do care about Israel are more concerned about their own governments and portray themselves and Islam as a method of resistance.

Edit:  The examples of revolutions around the Muslim world are showing there is another path and that is the major change for the region.

[CeeGBee]

While it seems clear to me that neither side is in the right, comparing the Israeli government
and military to Hamas really is an apples-to-oranges matter.....

On the one hand, there's a minimally-accountable militarily focused group that periodically lobs a rocket or ten
into Israel, occasionally hitting somewhere in the general vicinity of inhabited  spaces, and every couple of months
actually injuring or killing someone.  Oh, and they brainwash hopeless, impressionable, unemployed folk to strap
on bombs and get as close to the Zionist Pigs as they can, and blow themselves up.  An open border is not a
good idea with neighbors like this.  (Oh, and they distribute food aid and maintain some sort of law-and-order in
the areas they control, and manipulate such activities to ensure their continued control.)

On the other, there's a highly-motivated democratic nation (trying hard to accommodate the ideals of free elections
with the reality of an apartheid state), subject to the wrath of their various factions if they take unpopular actions,
like actually shutting down the illegal settlements, or fail to take action when the neighbors launch rockets at them...
And their army goes into populated areas, and seeing few obvious armed enemies upon whom to get payback, they
instead shoot a bunch of civilians, bulldoze houses pretty much at random, and occasionally kill foreign protestors
(drawing a couple weeks bad press and a stern talking-to from their friends in Washington).

It's easy to censure Israel for failing to live up to various ideals we may have for politically-sophisticated,
economically-advanced states, but they don't have a whole lot of options, particularly given the range of
political factions within the State.

[Shock G]

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/

If you get your information purely from sources like that it would explain your view on the situation much as if someone only watched Fox News.  The issue is almost all sources have huge biases (even worse than US politics) so you need to balance that out with the pro-Israeli ones and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Shock G]

While it seems clear to me that neither side is in the right, comparing the Israeli government
and military to Hamas really is an apples-to-oranges matter.....

On the one hand, there's a minimally-accountable militarily focused group that periodically lobs a rocket or ten
into Israel, occasionally hitting somewhere in the general vicinity of inhabited  spaces, and every couple of months
actually injuring or killing someone.  Oh, and they brainwash hopeless, impressionable, unemployed folk to strap
on bombs and get as close to the Zionist Pigs as they can, and blow themselves up.  An open border is not a
good idea with neighbors like this.  (Oh, and they distribute food aid and maintain some sort of law-and-order in
the areas they control, and manipulate such activities to ensure their continued control.)

On the other, there's a highly-motivated democratic nation (trying hard to accommodate the ideals of free elections
with the reality of an apartheid state), subject to the wrath of their various factions if they take unpopular actions,
like actually shutting down the illegal settlements, or fail to take action when the neighbors launch rockets at them...
And their army goes into populated areas, and seeing few obvious armed enemies upon whom to get payback, they
instead shoot a bunch of civilians, bulldoze houses pretty much at random, and occasionally kill foreign protestors
(drawing a couple weeks bad press and a stern talking-to from their friends in Washington).

It's easy to censure Israel for failing to live up to various ideals we may have for politically-sophisticated,
economically-advanced states, but they don't have a whole lot of options, particularly given the range of
political factions within the State.

For those in countries with divided government now imagine 5 major parties so it is always coalition government.  Some of these are hard core right wing parties and will demand certain pandering to get their support....which beyond Bibi's own views is what he is dealing with.  Lieberman looks like he might go down on some criminal charges though which will make for a much better government as he is the extreme end of the spectrum yet has a lot of power due to governments needing his support.

[The Angel Raliel]

oh indeed but worth considering that an Awful lot of people get their opinions from things like fox news

[Shock G]

oh indeed but worth considering that an Awful lot of people get their opinions from things like fox news

Which is the issue, if you have on one side like Avigdor Lieberman as the deputy prime minister, and a group like Hamas on the other no peace will be made since they are so extreme.  Their "compromise" positions would be so far out of the acceptable range for the other side as to be a joke.

[Savannah]

While it seems clear to me that neither side is in the right, comparing the Israeli government
and military to Hamas really is an apples-to-oranges matter.....

On the one hand, there's a minimally-accountable militarily focused group that periodically lobs a rocket or ten
into Israel, occasionally hitting somewhere in the general vicinity of inhabited  spaces, and every couple of months
actually injuring or killing someone.  Oh, and they brainwash hopeless, impressionable, unemployed folk to strap
on bombs and get as close to the Zionist Pigs as they can, and blow themselves up.  An open border is not a
good idea with neighbors like this.  (Oh, and they distribute food aid and maintain some sort of law-and-order in
the areas they control, and manipulate such activities to ensure their continued control.)

On the other, there's a highly-motivated democratic nation (trying hard to accommodate the ideals of free elections
with the reality of an apartheid state), subject to the wrath of their various factions if they take unpopular actions,
like actually shutting down the illegal settlements, or fail to take action when the neighbors launch rockets at them...
And their army goes into populated areas, and seeing few obvious armed enemies upon whom to get payback, they
instead shoot a bunch of civilians, bulldoze houses pretty much at random, and occasionally kill foreign protestors
(drawing a couple weeks bad press and a stern talking-to from their friends in Washington).

It's easy to censure Israel for failing to live up to various ideals we may have for politically-sophisticated,
economically-advanced states, but they don't have a whole lot of options, particularly given the range of
political factions within the State.

This!