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[lentower]

While it seems clear to me that neither side is in the right, comparing the Israeli government
and military to Hamas really is an apples-to-oranges matter.....

On the one hand, there's a minimally-accountable militarily focused group that periodically lobs a rocket or ten
into Israel, occasionally hitting somewhere in the general vicinity of inhabited  spaces, and every couple of months
actually injuring or killing someone.  Oh, and they brainwash hopeless, impressionable, unemployed folk to strap
on bombs and get as close to the Zionist Pigs as they can, and blow themselves up.  An open border is not a
good idea with neighbors like this.  (Oh, and they distribute food aid and maintain some sort of law-and-order in
the areas they control, and manipulate such activities to ensure their continued control.)

On the other, there's a highly-motivated democratic nation (trying hard to accommodate the ideals of free elections
with the reality of an apartheid state), subject to the wrath of their various factions if they take unpopular actions,
like actually shutting down the illegal settlements, or fail to take action when the neighbors launch rockets at them...
And their army goes into populated areas, and seeing few obvious armed enemies upon whom to get payback, they
instead shoot a bunch of civilians, bulldoze houses pretty much at random, and occasionally kill foreign protestors
(drawing a couple weeks bad press and a stern talking-to from their friends in Washington).

It's easy to censure Israel for failing to live up to various ideals we may have for politically-sophisticated,
economically-advanced states, but they don't have a whole lot of options, particularly given the range of
political factions within the State.

WORD

the changes in Egypt and elsewhere in the middle east,
are going to make it much harder for israel and it ally(ies)

[The Angel Raliel]

al we can hope for is a future of forward thinking and p;rogreesive governments to replace the bigoted ones of the past....this does not mean they have to be based on american or european models

[CeeGBee]

We will doubtless see the very same thing from the political Right here
in the US, just as soon as they can agree on a way to spin the story that doesn't make Obama look good, and
Bush by comparison to look lame and misdirected.  My early guess, they'll go with the "Look at Obama trying
to take credit for the actions of our brave soldiers who are still carrying on the mission Brave Leader George
'The Surge' Bush sent them on..."

This just in:

[lentower]

I was just reading some of the more in-depth news coverage and ran across this:

...The U.S. official who disclosed the burial at sea said it would have been difficult to find a country
willing to accept the remains. Obama said the remains had been handled in accordance with Islamic
custom, which requires speedy burial.

Now we can add him to the list with Biggie & Tupac & JFK.

Where are they really?

A freezer in Area 51 would be my guess.

Actually i have seen the picture and it looked to fake. Besides i live in a country whose people are %98 muslim, and i don't remember any of my relatives have been buried this quick. Seriously, it takes 2 days at least. I don't believe he is dead, and i don't believe it matters this much. I feel like it's a political move.

I believe you live in Turkey?

My understanding is that Turkey is not your typical Islamic country,

I also don't know what the Koran saids about burial.
Or how much borial customs vary across the Muslim world.

We don't use Islamic rules in our judgemental system, it's secular. But most of people are muslim. And though we are a lot different than Pakistan or any other Islamic country, ceremonies remain the same.
Actually when a muslim dies, first day either the body is sent to morgue or the family keeps it for a night. The second day it's sent to a local funeral undertaker and gets washed, it's called ablution. Later on, optionally, it waits for one more night so that all of the family members and friends hear about it and attend the funeral.

Last year my mother's aunt in law has died, it took 3 days.

Now, what i want to say is, it's optional. There's no rule about burying the dead in a hurry, it just has to be unimposing.

they should have just kept OBL's remains in a freezer @ Gitmo.
it's, sadly, become the US' legal dumping ground


i hope they had a fully qualified forensic MD do a full autopsy.
and they release it.


it's occurred to me that the bulk of President Obama's
experience with Islam is in Indonesia.

A wet and hot country,
that was much less developed when he lived there,
and where remains decay rapidly.

Where true, bodies got buried/cremated quickly.

I hope this kind of personal knowledge,
is NOT what lead to his comments last night,
about Islamic burial timing.

[CeeGBee]

A full autopsy?  To what end?

Is it/is it not OBL?  DNA test confirms that.

Cause of death? Traumatic ballistic removal of large quantities of cranial matter and blood.

Any other questions?

[JohnnyDBBUK]

I have a question.
When will the commandos do the same to Bush and Blair who by their actions have caused the death of 4 times more innocent civilians than Osama Bin Laden? OBL began by fighting invading Russians, then switched his attention to the US after they set-up shop near Holy Sites. Cause and effect. Would he have started his campaign if they hadn't who knows but an interesting point nonetheless. Another case point> Ireland, would the IRA had got so many followers/members if the British Army hadn't opened fire on a civil rights march killing teenagers, Dads and Grandads? everyone keep to your own lands and stop fucking around in other peoples countries.

Fuck it, killing is wrong. Even if it is killing a murderous fucktard.
All this shit has done is create more followers and increased risk of retaliatory attack.

OBL should have been arrested, tried and then sentenced to punishment for the rest of his days.
Death is an instant punishment a prolonged one is more fitting in my eyes. An evil man should pay penance not die imo.
Justice not murder.

[The Angel Raliel]

my point exactly..... what if the british had in the 70s sent a group of soldiers to the US and assinated those that were supplying the IRA?

[N.U.]

You can be soft about this and continue doing what we did during Bush's term, using OBL as a boogey-man, or you can have the stone to make the decision to end a life.

Obama chose the latter. Let the Republicans try to make Democrats out to be the party of platitudes and placation in 2012.

[Shock G]

my point exactly..... what if the british had in the 70s sent a group of soldiers to the US and assinated those that were supplying the IRA?

Where did that come from? 

This was the head of a terrorist organization, not some guy who donated to a fund or even ran a fund that funneled money to them, those people we freeze their assets/arrest and many are in jail.  You are comparing apples to hamburgers.

[The Angel Raliel]

actually he was always just a spokesman...when it came to the war against the west he was pretty much not the one who actually DID anything just condoned and financed it...get your facts together

[N.U.]

Should Charles Manson be in jail? After all, he was just a spokesman. He never actually murdered anyone.

[Shock G]

I have a question.
When will the commandos do the same to Bush and Blair who by their actions have caused the death of 4 times more innocent civilians than Osama Bin Laden? OBL began by fighting invading Russians, then switched his attention to the US after they set-up shop near Holy Sites. Cause and effect. Would he have started his campaign if they hadn't who knows but an interesting point nonetheless. Another case point> Ireland, would the IRA had got so many followers/members if the British Army hadn't opened fire on a civil rights march killing teenagers, Dads and Grandads? everyone keep to your own lands and stop fucking around in other peoples countries.

Fuck it, killing is wrong. Even if it is killing a murderous fucktard.
All this shit has done is create more followers and increased risk of retaliatory attack.

OBL should have been arrested, tried and then sentenced to punishment for the rest of his days.
Death is an instant punishment a prolonged one is more fitting in my eyes. An evil man should pay penance not die imo.
Justice not murder.

First to the part in bold it was due to the US defending the holy land and not his fighters.  When Saddam invaded Kuwait and was on the border ready to strike Saudi Arabia (and if he attacked right away he would have conquered it easily) Osama contacted the Saudi royal family saying his forces that had just finished in Afghanistan could come and defend the kingdom, but instead he was snubbed in favor of the US.

Now to create the alternate history, Saudi Arabia is a desert not a mountainous region where small units have such a great effect (and why no one has been able to conquer Afghanistan in history) so Saddam's tank's would roll over them and then he would have most of the World's oil reserves.  Not a situation anyone would want, so the US and the rest of the first gulf war coalition had to act even if just in their vital economic self interests.

Killing is wrong but not all killing is the same, just look at our legal system and the various degrees of malicious killing from involuntary manslaughter to premeditated murder and many steps in between, and some cases where it is in self defense have no charges.  Trying to compare civilian deaths as part of collateral damage in a military strike/operation to a blatant attempt to kill as many civilians as possible would be like equating involuntary manslaughter to murder in the 1st degree.  And historically unless there is an explicit show of intent by commanders or soldiers to commit mass crimes then they are not judged as such since war when it boils down to it is killing people and no one has been able to ever just kill the “bad guys” no matter how hard they try.

[Shock G]

actually he was always just a spokesman...when it came to the war against the west he was pretty much not the one who actually DID anything just condoned and financed it...get your facts together

Because he didn't physically kill people it is different? Edit: the Charles Manson example above can replace this part.  

And also where did you get your facts on to what exactly Bin Laden did?  How do you know he did not help plan 9/11, the USS Cole, or the other bombings.

[Shock G]

Should Charles Manson be in jail? After all, he was just a spokesman. He never actually murdered anyone.

 

I hate making Goodwin's law come true so I'll edit that part out of mine 

[Shock G]