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[Shock G]

but lets be honest are you all so cool with your Government ok-ing midnight murderfests against whoever they please across the world? That scares the shit out of me that they do that so casually around the world.
Newsflash American Government ye don't own the world. Borders must be respected. Cross a border you will most likely piss some militant type off.

Honestly, I'm not so terribly concerned about Osama bL waking up with an American hit-squad in his room.....

What does bother me rather a lot is the as-yet-undetermined (but probably in the hundreds) number of men kidnapped
by US and allied security/intelligence agencies, frequently on no more basis than a tip from a neighbour, and whisked off
to secret prisons in unnamed countries to be held and tortured without charge or a chance to contest their detainment...

If you spy guys didn't think it was illegal, why didn't you bring 'em back here?
Possibly because you knew damn well there's no law anywhere that would approve?
Not US law, not "international law", no treaty, nuthin'.....

We could whisk them off to Gitmo which I believe would be "legal", rendition was more for torture as other countries use techniques that make water boarding (which is deemed torture by most definitions, and we included it in a charge of war crimes during WWII) seem mild, and the CIA prisons where they did who knows what.

After 9/11 was a crazy time and we fucked up big, there were no laws basically and the administration took advantage of that, it took around 5 years to finally have things come to light and for judicial over site to be able to start to step in.

There will always be "black" missions around the globe like right now we are fighting in Somalia as well as Yemen but in a much smaller role.  This is probably what the "War on Terror" will become, if there is a hot spot the US will use it's forces to minimize the strength of terrorist organizations and try to stop their ability to strike us.  This sort of thing in Afghanistan is a much better option than our current attempt at occupying a land no one has been able to hold in recorded history.

As for the post 9/11 world and freedom this is a huge issue and the government gained lots of power with the patriot act and even with a new president they haven't really given up any of it.

[Savannah]

Well what makes me really scared is that Al-Qaeda will get agressive over America and some other countries again.

In past our government tried to stop their organizational structure inside our borders, and they started attacking, suicide bombing, kidnapping, etc, they even blew up a synagogue which caused many people to die. I can't remember much but i think it took nearly a year for them to calm down.

So i think, Osama was a symbol and they still believe in the same dogmas as they used to 10 years back. There are many leaders they follow, not just Osama.

So it's time to take precautions instead of celebrating this death. I'm terribly afraid of crowded places right now.

[JohnnyDBBUK]

but lets be honest are you all so cool with your Government ok-ing midnight murderfests against whoever they please across the world? That scares the shit out of me that they do that so casually around the world.
Newsflash American Government ye don't own the world. Borders must be respected. Cross a border you will most likely piss some militant type off.

Honestly, I'm not so terribly concerned about Osama bL waking up with an American hit-squad in his room.....

What does bother me rather a lot is the as-yet-undetermined (but probably in the hundreds) number of men kidnapped
by US and allied security/intelligence agencies, frequently on no more basis than a tip from a neighbour, and whisked off
to secret prisons in unnamed countries to be held and tortured without charge or a chance to contest their detainment...

If you spy guys didn't think it was illegal, why didn't you bring 'em back here?
Possibly because you knew damn well there's no law anywhere that would approve?
Not US law, not "international law", no treaty, nuthin'.....

Cee I agree with you but I just wish they took him in rather than go guns blazing. From the sound of things the compound was caught with its pants down and had little time to mobilise so I really don't believe they had no option of than shoot to kill.
Another thing that bugs me about US forces playing about abroad is that they pick their fights under the banner of peace keeping/democracy building when in fact it's usually about protecting their own interests.
if they were so virtuous in thier war on terror etc why didn't they go sort out for example Mugabe or Kim Jong Il or better yet have a talk with China about their human rights offences.
They just convienently go where there are resources/American interests and it sullies the 'heroic west schpiel'. This is how the world sees it I am not sure how it is reported in the states.

[The Angel Raliel]

also as predicted...the real head of Al quaida has issued a statement declaring a new era of attacks upon the west....thanks for that

[N.U.]

What did you expect them to say? Seriously.

"Oh! Good one. You Americans got us but good. We cannot possibly recover from this loss."

Seriously.

[Shock G]

What did you expect them to say? Seriously.

"Oh! Good one. You Americans got us but good. We cannot possibly recover from this loss."

Seriously.

It's like earlier when there was an example shown of a terrorist organization condemning it to try and say hey look they are pissed we did it.  Of course a terrorist leader will be pissed off to know that if the US is attacked they will get you.

[Shock G]

but lets be honest are you all so cool with your Government ok-ing midnight murderfests against whoever they please across the world? That scares the shit out of me that they do that so casually around the world.
Newsflash American Government ye don't own the world. Borders must be respected. Cross a border you will most likely piss some militant type off.

Honestly, I'm not so terribly concerned about Osama bL waking up with an American hit-squad in his room.....

What does bother me rather a lot is the as-yet-undetermined (but probably in the hundreds) number of men kidnapped
by US and allied security/intelligence agencies, frequently on no more basis than a tip from a neighbour, and whisked off
to secret prisons in unnamed countries to be held and tortured without charge or a chance to contest their detainment...

If you spy guys didn't think it was illegal, why didn't you bring 'em back here?
Possibly because you knew damn well there's no law anywhere that would approve?
Not US law, not "international law", no treaty, nuthin'.....

Cee I agree with you but I just wish they took him in rather than go guns blazing. From the sound of things the compound was caught with its pants down and had little time to mobilise so I really don't believe they had no option of than shoot to kill.
Another thing that bugs me about US forces playing about abroad is that they pick their fights under the banner of peace keeping/democracy building when in fact it's usually about protecting their own interests.
if they were so virtuous in thier war on terror etc why didn't they go sort out for example Mugabe or Kim Jong Il or better yet have a talk with China about their human rights offences.
They just convienently go where there are resources/American interests and it sullies the 'heroic west schpiel'. This is how the world sees it I am not sure how it is reported in the states.

China and North Korea are nuclear powers, China actually has the power to destroy most US cities with ICBM's so it is pretty obvious why we don't go gun blazing into there.  And for North Korea 1 second of aggression means they use their artillery on Seoul and in all of 15 minutes without a nuke even that city is destroyed.

Now as to going into the compound have you seen the photos?  That was a heavily fortified building they needed to go in guns ready and reports were of a fire fight so it sounds like they were met with armed resistance.

[N.U.]

What would be the purpose of grabbing him? You're talking about one huge security headache and no trial anything more than a show trial due to the high profile of OBL.

I prefer to send a clear message, "if you kill several thousand of our innocent countrymen, we will end you."

Harsh? Ask the folks who died in the WTC in 1993 and 2001, both embassies that were blown in 1998 in Tanzania and Kenya (practically simultaneously), those who died on the USS Cole in 2000, and those who died in the Pentagon in 2001 if they think it's harsh.

Casualty list
1993 WTC bombing: Dead: 6 (7 if you count the unborn child who died) Wounded: 1,042
1998 embassy bombings: Dead: 223 Wounded: 4,085
2000 USS Cole bombing: Dead 17 Wounded : 39
9/11/01: Dead: 2,977 Wounded: Undetermined due to continued WTC Dust exposure claims

Totals: Dead: 3,223 Wounded: 5,166 plus undetermined continued WTC Dust exposure claims

Killing the guy who planned all of this chaos, to me, seems, for lack of a better word, righteous.

[Agonistes]

but lets be honest are you all so cool with your Government ok-ing midnight murderfests against whoever they please across the world? That scares the shit out of me that they do that so casually around the world.
Newsflash American Government ye don't own the world. Borders must be respected. Cross a border you will most likely piss some militant type off.

Honestly, I'm not so terribly concerned about Osama bL waking up with an American hit-squad in his room.....

What does bother me rather a lot is the as-yet-undetermined (but probably in the hundreds) number of men kidnapped
by US and allied security/intelligence agencies, frequently on no more basis than a tip from a neighbour, and whisked off
to secret prisons in unnamed countries to be held and tortured without charge or a chance to contest their detainment...

If you spy guys didn't think it was illegal, why didn't you bring 'em back here?
Possibly because you knew damn well there's no law anywhere that would approve?
Not US law, not "international law", no treaty, nuthin'.....

Cee I agree with you but I just wish they took him in rather than go guns blazing. From the sound of things the compound was caught with its pants down and had little time to mobilise so I really don't believe they had no option of than shoot to kill.
Another thing that bugs me about US forces playing about abroad is that they pick their fights under the banner of peace keeping/democracy building when in fact it's usually about protecting their own interests.
if they were so virtuous in thier war on terror etc why didn't they go sort out for example Mugabe or Kim Jong Il or better yet have a talk with China about their human rights offences.
They just convienently go where there are resources/American interests and it sullies the 'heroic west schpiel'. This is how the world sees it I am not sure how it is reported in the states.

this isn't a case of us forces going where they aren't wanted.  well, maybe it is, but it doesn't actually matter.  it actually WAS a case of of american interests being protected.  osama bin laden didn't have any oil.  and really it doesn't matter what the world thinks; most of america remembers watching people try to climb out flaming windows and dropping to their deaths while we watched two buildings collapse, in horror.  we shot the guy who sent videotapes gloating about that incident and claiming full responsibility.  pretty sure america is okay with what happened and how it happened.  not really sure why other countries would even blink an eye (had they been bombed by terrorists, america would probably be the first one on the scene with aid--let me just take a moment to thank europe for all that help we didn't get), but then, we've bailed most of europe out before, too, and nobody ever pays us back or thanks us, beyond publicly condemning whatever we do in public.

i'm pretty sure they would have brought bin laden in if they had been able, but as nu says, the security nightmare....not to mention it's all on our bill.  but, if the standing order was go in and kill anything that moves, i don't see how anyone has the fucking balls to say a word of condemnation about it one way or the other.  it's not like we crashed a hijacked plane full of al-queda civilian passengers into his house or anything.  nobody forced him out of his office with a jet engine.  he didn't have to try to climb to safety while on fire.

this was not a picked fight by the americans.  this was a fight americans got dragged into.  we've bitched about this whole damn war and what it cost the whole time we have had forces there.  we've gotten fussed at for using mild torture-like methods instead of actual torture, when our soldiers and civilians are getting blown up and sawn to death with serrated knives to the throat.  we've gotten yelled at for only wanting oil when we depose a dictator, and when we spend everything in our treasury on a ten year manhunt to find a guy who declared war on us, quite successfully.  yet, we surely just did it for the oil.  notwithstanding we're paying out the ass for gas over here right now.

right now, we have soldiers saying things like 'what do you mean 'we' got him?'

don't get me wrong, i have no need of forces in the middle east.  i've opposed the 'war' since before it started, and i have opposed just about everything the bush family ever did.  i don't see why it wouldn't have been cheaper just to send in an assassin.  but i have no problem whatsoever with bin laden being shot on sight.  i just wish there had been a camera available, and that they had shot him for the world to see, but even with this completely justified and awesome strike, america's trying to at least be somewhat decent about it.  sure, we're a bunch of asshole cowboys, whatever.  but jesus christ, it would be nice once in a big-butted blue moon to see someone say, well done america, you got that guy who killed a shitload of your civilians.  fuck, it's not that often we do anything quite so awesome.

maybe some of you guys aren't old enough to remember that day.  hopefully none of you will ever see a day like that on tv, where the reporters for once don't even know what the fuck to say.  once you see and your mind finally lets you comprehend something of that magnitude, it's hard to understand how anyone could think a fair trial could result from an act like that.

[JohnnyDBBUK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpP7b2lUxVE

I'm 31 - I remember perfectly well and I remember the hate I felt that day.
but
I also remember your Presidents idiotic self motivated reaction which killed 4 times as many Iraqi and Afghan civilians.

Don't mistake any of my words for pro Taliban feeling because I think they are evil, they subjugate women and have brutal methods of controlling communities.

I just think America needs to be more careful in it's actions accross the world.

Europe sang feed the world
America sang we are the world.
no, no you are not. 

[Andy Pants]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

[Agonistes]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

i've heard he was unarmed, and i've also heard he fired a shot and refused to surrender his weapon, while hiding behind one of his wives.  also, it's irresponsible to have your kid nearby when you are at war.

either way, i don't really give a shit.  he was a casualty of war (which he initially declared).  also, one usually doesn't give assassination targets a trial.  besides, a trial is just one more bill america would have to shoulder while the rest of the world screams about how his trial isn't fair enough, and how america didnt have the right to play jury.  

[Shock G]

Anyone want to mention the fact that he was killed UNARMED whilst in his fucking pajamas in fron of his twelve year old daughter? Because if not then I'll be the asshole and say he should have at least been arrested and given a mock trial like Suddame Huseine.

It was a kill capture mission, if he even made the slightest hint of a threatening action he would be shot, that is the standard ROE (rules of engagement).  These are not police officers they are SEALS and their own safety is paramount in such a mission.

Also as has been mentioned he declared war on the US and then committed what would be considered acts of war, legally there can be an argument that the US was within their rights even if they just wanted to shoot him as he was a combatant.  This gives the military the authority to kill even if they are not actively firing on you.

See Agnoistes posts above she hit all the big points on what he did so no need for me to rehash it.  Like her I'm no hawk but this is the sort of thing we should be doing instead of large scale wars that do little yet cost enormous sums of money.

[Agonistes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpP7b2lUxVE

I'm 31 - I remember perfectly well and I remember the hate I felt that day.
but
I also remember your Presidents idiotic self motivated reaction which killed 4 times as many Iraqi and Afghan civilians.

Don't mistake any of my words for pro Taliban feeling because I think they are evil, they subjugate women and have brutal methods of controlling communities.

I just think America needs to be more careful in it's actions accross the world.

Europe sang feed the world
America sang we are the world.
no, no you are not.  

bush wasn't my president.  he cheated in an election, twice.

america couldn't be more careful in its actions across the world, especially in this instance.  thanks to bush's dumb ass, whom i am slightly surprised wasn't hiding out with osama, there is no way we can do a damn thing on any soil but our own without getting condemned for it.

and no, we're not the world.  we're just whom the world calls to clean up its disasters and give it money when its companies go belly-up.  and, europe sang 'feed the world' while apartheid was alive and well.  just sayin.

[N.U.]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/8hGvQtumNAY" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/8hGvQtumNAY</a>
"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg?

I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives.

You don't want the truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall.

We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand at post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."