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Author Topic: SlutWalks  (Read 17395 times)

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lentower

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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2011, 12:33:01 AM »

while you all are moving the convo from the locked thread

over in the locked thread,
you can click the Quote link
click in the the Quick Reply box
copy the text in it (Control-A Control-C or Clover-A Clover-C on most compies)
come over to this thread,
click in the Quick Reply box here
paste it (Control-V or Clover-V)
continue editing

this has the advantage of adding more links back to the locked thread
and it's convos.
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The Angel Raliel

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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2011, 02:04:50 AM »

simple one.... just because you do not like or approve of the way someone dresses does not mean that they should not be able to wear it.....or that they are inciting sexual assault..... if the law starts enfocing dress codes for our own protection...we will soon end up with an enforced uniform....look at communist china or parts of the middle east and see how that worked out
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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2011, 02:18:40 AM »

^what you just said reminds me a lot of movies like equilibrium, or other similar movies and books (there are a LOT) and it always ends badly...
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Agonistes

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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2011, 02:23:17 AM »

SOYLENT GREEN IS PEE-PUL







i'm sorry.  i could NOT resist.  i think it's because that top reminds me of taffy when i scroll past it.
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The Angel Raliel

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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2011, 02:31:28 AM »

because I strongly believe in freedom of individuality.....I deeply dislike the Hijab and what it stands for but will defend to the death a womans right to wear it....banning a style of dress, be it hoodies or hijabs allows for  a legal process capable of ditating what YOU wear.....if we go down the french route and ban the Hijab...then it is perfectly feasable for the government to decide to ban the wearing of skirts that are above the knee or t-shirts with slogans on or even to dictate that  one should not have bare shoulders in public....incidentally pretty sure draconian dress codes actually do nothing to stop rape.
 a more eloquent version of this argument can be seen in Neil gaiman's journal....different subject matter but same basic argument
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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2011, 02:41:04 AM »

because I strongly believe in freedom of individuality.....I deeply dislike the Hijab and what it stands for but will defend to the death a womans right to wear it....banning a style of dress, be it hoodies or hijabs allows for  a legal process capable of ditating what YOU wear.....if we go down the french route and ban the Hijab...then it is perfectly feasable for the government to decide to ban the wearing of skirts that are above the knee or t-shirts with slogans on or even to dictate that  one should not have bare shoulders in public....incidentally pretty sure draconian dress codes actually do nothing to stop rape.
 a more eloquent version of this argument can be seen in Neil gaiman's journal....different subject matter but same basic argument
a lot of the public schools (govt-funded) over here have adopted dress codes.  it somewhat levels the playing field of kids with better clothing funds being able to use that as status, while allowing for cultural differences and saving the parents a good bit of money, actually.  and, there is a lot you can do with a uniform.

i have a hard time imagining a government-regulated uniform ever becoming a reality, though.  outside of the cultures where it is de rigeur, i mean.
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The Angel Raliel

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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2011, 02:53:06 AM »

actually we are closer than one might imagine....  (oh and school uniforms DO NOT stop bullying, which is often cited as a good reason for them...they simply are a tool of insitutionalising the inmates...oops, students....which is arguably a useful thing to do when trying to educate en masse but is distinctly damaging to creativity and self expression) it may not start out as being an uniform per se but if we go down the french route we start allowing law and government to dictate what we can and cannot wear, and once the prescedent has been set it becomes much easier to introduce similar rulings....what if it became illegal to wear overtly religious jwellery in public? one could argue that this would be a good thing because it stops people being targeted by race hate or religious bigotry or offending someone elses belief system....but is it really a good thing? If i wanted to wear a pentagram on a chain could i then be arrested? the erosion of personal freedoms can be a subtle  and slippery thing that looks at first glance looks like a protective and positive move.....has banning a particular mode of islamic dress actually achieved anything?.....probably got a whole lot of french muslims pissed off and thus actually more likely to move towards extremism
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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2011, 03:09:47 AM »

i dunno....i go back and forth on the school uniforms (i was always more happy in a uniform-code school than a dress-code school), but i'm foursquare against public dress policies for any symbolic reason.  i'm cool with decency laws, i've run across way more naked people than i've needed to in public, and it's almost never a pleasant surprise, is it?  while i'm no fan of religion, i'm also well aware that to ban an icon is to ban an idea, and therefore to start the ball rolling towards some heavy unpleasantness.
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The Angel Raliel

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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2011, 03:19:32 AM »

indeed and i really do not have a problem with public nudity....I may find it umm mildly unpleasant but if it is not done in an overtly sexual way in which innocents might experience it then go right ahead...personally I am keeping my high collar shirt and frock coat....besides this is england...too bloody cold.......I went to a secondary school with a uniform (and yes i got into trouble for subtly adapting it to bow tie and waistcoat...technically still within uniform guidlines but was considered to be wrong....basically conforming simply was not going to be an option for me...and yes i was bullied relentlessly as was any kid who's uniform was a bit on the cheap side or not quite up to date enough..kids are gits and will find ways to be mean no matter how you institutionalise it) and indeed just because i disagree with religion it does not mean i will not defend someones right to express there belief in said religion, be it by clothing or by words...it is ok to argue it is not ok to ban or supress.
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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2011, 03:32:27 AM »

part of liking a uniform for me was the perverse joy i get out of archaic dress, myself.  in dress-coded schools i was generally overdressed, and garnered attention for preferring a pocketwatch to swatches, using fountain pens, and so on.

and true, bullies will bully, no matter what the circumstances. it's more something that has to be trained out of us than prevented, i think.  prevention only makes it clandestine, and the last thing anyone wants is a bully to catch them out of sight of authority.  harder to root out the ideas that make us divisive in the first place.

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Indja

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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2011, 04:45:38 AM »

I'm agreeing with most of what's been said, particularly the main point that whether we like what someone wears or not doesn't remove their right to wear it. Mockery's statement that revealing "nice" areas of your body but that it "must" be done in a sophisticated way stuck out for me as being particularly hard to get my head round. Who's to say what's nice or nasty, and why on earth is classiness compulsory?

I also think we've been forgetting to apply this to ourselves and to people we know, which means things have a tendency to become preachy or snobby or what have you. I think we need reminding that, just as we would be hurt and upset if told our jeans or our t-shirts or our trainers were unacceptable, or that someone was looking at them and not only assuming serious things about our personality but also wanting to control our decision to wear it, so we should be as hurt and upset when people do the same with short skirts, high heels and skimpy tops.


Also, why is the other thread locked? Is it just because there's two threads?
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lentower

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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2011, 05:04:22 AM »

Also, why is the other thread locked? Is it just because there's two threads?

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The Angel Raliel

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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2011, 05:09:10 AM »

indeed ...... got to the point where people were basically having exactly the same discussion via two different threads....the Mods above are apparently trying to shift the relevent content over to this one.......
It is hard to get used to the idea that it is ok to be offended on a personal level but when that starts affecting the law and enforces restriction of clothing style then it is a verty bad thing... the fact that we all pretty much get that is a rare thing in the world and we should strive towards eloquent explanation of our points of view rather than getting all feisty upon those that disagree
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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2011, 06:05:47 AM »

oh indeed anything i have said has been expressing a point of view and is in no way meant to be an attack on the views of other SB members...more a gentle dismantling of those who's ideas are wrong (ie not mine) the uniform says it all in it's very name.. it is about making people conform to a uniform appearance and by inference a uniform pattern of behaviour....in institutions it is arguable that this is generally positive but when the idea of uniform starts creeping into the laws of evryday life, one has to start seriously worrying....If how a woman dresses can be usedd in law to dismiss a rape trial then we have a serious problem
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Re: SlutWalks
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2011, 06:15:26 AM »

Two points:

On school uniform:
I come from a country where we don't use school uniforms, nor dress codes. Depending on the school, they might have few guidelines on attire (no pants showing or hats on guys, no short skirts on girls, no offensive words/prints overall) but generally it's all very lax compared. All the reasons why someone should wear a uniform do not make sense to me.
First, they say as all are dressed the same, you don't get bullied about style or being poor. Still, you are allowed to have your own bag and jewellry which are clear indicates on if you can afford the branded bag or not. And kids do modify their uniforms: small or big knot on the tie, hiking up the skirts a bit higher, etc. The indications of style or poverty just become smaller. It also doesn't erase any other reason for bullying. I was bullied for 9 years and partly because of my clothes but more likely because I wanted a friend so badly and took anything they said to heart, so I was an easy target.
Second, they say that school uniform makes you more focused to school work. So, should you wear the uniform still when you do homework? Should all jobs have exactly same uniforms so that people can focus? No. It's more to do with how society wants you to be prepared for the adult life, are you allowed to express yourself or should you be like everyone else...

In the other topic that got closed, issue of rape was discussed, and I'd like to say that even though there is no legal definition for a female rapist, their actions are trialled as serious sexual assault. I suppose these have been seen as "rape" because even though rape by law is only something you can do with a penis to vagina or anus, I'd claim in general language sexual assault where the victim is forced to give oral sex or penetrated with fingers or objects, would be called a rape.
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