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Author Topic: I don't mean to complain but...  (Read 12389 times)

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indeciSEAN

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Re: I don't mean to complain but...
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2011, 03:25:22 AM »

It's starting to get pretty annoying that every time a fan gives any amount of criticism or feedback half of team amanda is there to defend or explain their actions. When a fan says they don't like something, they probably aren't the only one who feels this way. Instead of trying to explain why things are a certain way, listen to what they have to say and see if it can be done differently next time. It will make your fans a lot happier and it will probably improve sales.

Only speaking for myself here, but it's always been annoying that just because I don't say "you're completely right, let me get right on that!" someone assumes I'm not listening. I do my best to listen to everything everyone says - that's here on the forum, on the social networks, via direct tweets and emails, and at shows when people approach me. I also spend time toiling over analytics and numbers and what they mean; To be honest, most fans don't say very much via words, but say a lot via click-throughs, time spent on a page, etc. Either way, I am listening.

We are all striving to make the fans happier (and sure, improve sales, this is a business), but even if you didn't mean for it to be, it's a direct attack on a shit-ton of hard work the team is doing to have you come in and tell us how to do our jobs/make more money. Our choice to "defend" or "explain" our choices and actions is something that a LOT of people have vocalized thanks to, and said that because we're willing to have such a high level of transparency, it's kept them checked-in (even when things have gotten rocky). As a fan, I love when the artist or artist's staff, goes out of their way to communicate why and how things work. Sorry if that - and probably my response - bums you out, but it's that type of communication that many have thanked us for, time and time again.
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indeciSEAN

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Re: I don't mean to complain but...
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2011, 03:44:42 AM »

thanks very much for this post.  i honestly don't know enough about this type of creative process to comment much on it, but i do understand it better now.

i work in a very plagiaristic, theft-ful art genre.  you wouldn't believe some of the conversations on what constitutes tracing, or idea theft.  seeing how people talk to me about the artistic side of what i do discourages me from thinking there will ever be a 100% equitable solution to the respect issues between artists and clients, so i apologize if my tone is cynical; when it comes to work (anybody's); i have a sort of fatalistic attitude already.

i wondered when iphones would start trying to tell us what we could and could not take pictures of, or at least trying to help against bootlegging.  no fear; there will probably be a way around that particular issue before the issue is even released, speaking of leakage.

and, i agree, it's annoying to go to a show and nothing is there but recording folk.  by the same token, it's also annoying that the legitimate recordings that make it out there often suck giant ass (fan yelling into the camera mic, jiggle-cam, etc).  i realize amanda's shows aren't the same as say, the grateful dead, whom i mentioned; their stadium shows had a huge recording section full of all these microphone trees and stuff.  which, i have to say, was kind of annoying even though they were segregated from the dancing, delighted stoned people; i can't put my finger on why, but the guys all sitting there looked like they could give a shit about how good or bad the show was.  but i get what you are saying.

i never heard any leaked music from amanda or the dolls, myself.  the mp-3 i was given to introduce me to them, probably illegally, prompted me to buy the albums, though.  and, i subsequently went on a youtube journey to try to find live stuff, initially thinking, 'wow this is shitty sound but these guys do a hell of a show.'  so i do see the merit of having recordings out there......but yeah, i totally get the cons.

my last statement in the other post that you didn't understand was poorly worded.  what i meant was it's hard for me to understand how a song goes through so many versions before an artist calls it done.  since my art is all visual and i have NO musical talent or experience, i have a hard time getting my head around the creative process in other genres sometimes, and reconciling it with my own philosophy when it comes to art that makes me money; i.e. 'done is good.'  get it done; make the money.  that's how i'm used to it working for me.  so, that's just me trying to get my head around a different sort of creative process, which isn't easy for me.

You're very welcome. And I'm sorry that your field is full of thieves; on the "bright side," every field seems to be these days.
As far as "illegal downloads" go, some shit can't be helped, and I hope I didn't give you the impression we want to kick doors in looking for people who are "stealing." In fact, I discovered the band when a friend of mine sent me some shitty quality MP3s. I LOVED what I heard, looked into what the band had bought out, and within 15 minutes had ordered myself a copy of "A Is For Accident" (the only release that existed at the time).
I wasn't trying to come in here and come across as the town sheriff - pissed off and taking names - I just saw a discussion going on I could over some insight to, and tried to do that.

P.S. The "when is a song done" thing is a HUGEEEEE conversation in and of itself - and often, we're catching new material uploaded to YouTube like everyone else. It's REALLY rare Amanda specifically asks people not share stuff, but I suspect her decision is based at least partially on the perfect storm of technology finally getting to the point of enabling pretty much everyone to get a good quality recording, coupled with her insight as to how that might effect the way she wants to release material in the future.
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indeciSEAN

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Re: I don't mean to complain but...
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2011, 03:45:43 AM »

Just a tuppence worth..... why try to create an "us and them" situation in what has always been a huge US with layers of proffesionalism and and volunteering constantly crossing over? yes things do not always go as perfectly as hoped but that is mainly due to relying on US rather than creating or using a purely professional body of THEM....more support is always going to be needed... but that support grows from a community of dedicated people who CARE

I'm not trying to create that type of situation. Sorry you feel that way. If I didn't want people to CARE, I wouldn't take the time to try and discuss this stuff, here.
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The Angel Raliel

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Re: I don't mean to complain but...
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2011, 03:50:59 AM »

Just a tuppence worth..... why try to create an "us and them" situation in what has always been a huge US with layers of proffesionalism and and volunteering constantly crossing over? yes things do not always go as perfectly as hoped but that is mainly due to relying on US rather than creating or using a purely professional body of THEM....more support is always going to be needed... but that support grows from a community of dedicated people who CARE

I'm not trying to create that type of situation. Sorry you feel that way. If I didn't want people to CARE, I wouldn't take the time to try and discuss this stuff, here.
I think people have misinterpreted what i was trying to say.... i was basically in full support of all the people who strive hard and was commentinbg on the fanbase that perceive an US and THEM situation! (i was sticking up for the pros and volunteers who make it all work from behind the scenes and in front)
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indeciSEAN

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Re: I don't mean to complain but...
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2011, 03:55:43 AM »

Just a tuppence worth..... why try to create an "us and them" situation in what has always been a huge US with layers of proffesionalism and and volunteering constantly crossing over? yes things do not always go as perfectly as hoped but that is mainly due to relying on US rather than creating or using a purely professional body of THEM....more support is always going to be needed... but that support grows from a community of dedicated people who CARE

I'm not trying to create that type of situation. Sorry you feel that way. If I didn't want people to CARE, I wouldn't take the time to try and discuss this stuff, here.
I think people have misinterpreted what i was trying to say.... i was basically in full support of all the people who strive hard and was commentinbg on the fanbase that perceive an US and THEM situation! (i was sticking up for the pros and volunteers who make it all work from behind the scenes and in front)

Ha. I almost asked you to clarify until I saw Agonistes' post that they agreed and expounded. I re-read it and saw that perspective and figured I was just missing something. So...thank you, then?  ^-^
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The Angel Raliel

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Re: I don't mean to complain but...
« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2011, 04:04:34 AM »

indeed!
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@raliel

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Re: I don't mean to complain but...
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2011, 09:42:57 AM »

Just a tuppence worth..... why try to create an "us and them" situation in what has always been a huge US with layers of proffesionalism and and volunteering constantly crossing over? yes things do not always go as perfectly as hoped but that is mainly due to relying on US rather than creating or using a purely professional body of THEM....more support is always going to be needed... but that support grows from a community of dedicated people who CARE

I'm not trying to create that type of situation. Sorry you feel that way. If I didn't want people to CARE, I wouldn't take the time to try and discuss this stuff, here.
I think people have misinterpreted what i was trying to say.... i was basically in full support of all the people who strive hard and was commentinbg on the fanbase that perceive an US and THEM situation! (i was sticking up for the pros and volunteers who make it all work from behind the scenes and in front)

i apologize if i misinterpreted you; your thoughts seemed to echo an impression i have had for a short while, and i sort of went my own way from your starting point.  and, i also need to clarify i wasn't trying to point out a shortcoming.....more like a feeling that probably wasn't intentionally passed along, if anything.


thanks very much for this post.  i honestly don't know enough about this type of creative process to comment much on it, but i do understand it better now.

i work in a very plagiaristic, theft-ful art genre.  you wouldn't believe some of the conversations on what constitutes tracing, or idea theft.  seeing how people talk to me about the artistic side of what i do discourages me from thinking there will ever be a 100% equitable solution to the respect issues between artists and clients, so i apologize if my tone is cynical; when it comes to work (anybody's); i have a sort of fatalistic attitude already.

i wondered when iphones would start trying to tell us what we could and could not take pictures of, or at least trying to help against bootlegging.  no fear; there will probably be a way around that particular issue before the issue is even released, speaking of leakage.

and, i agree, it's annoying to go to a show and nothing is there but recording folk.  by the same token, it's also annoying that the legitimate recordings that make it out there often suck giant ass (fan yelling into the camera mic, jiggle-cam, etc).  i realize amanda's shows aren't the same as say, the grateful dead, whom i mentioned; their stadium shows had a huge recording section full of all these microphone trees and stuff.  which, i have to say, was kind of annoying even though they were segregated from the dancing, delighted stoned people; i can't put my finger on why, but the guys all sitting there looked like they could give a shit about how good or bad the show was.  but i get what you are saying.

i never heard any leaked music from amanda or the dolls, myself.  the mp-3 i was given to introduce me to them, probably illegally, prompted me to buy the albums, though.  and, i subsequently went on a youtube journey to try to find live stuff, initially thinking, 'wow this is shitty sound but these guys do a hell of a show.'  so i do see the merit of having recordings out there......but yeah, i totally get the cons.

my last statement in the other post that you didn't understand was poorly worded.  what i meant was it's hard for me to understand how a song goes through so many versions before an artist calls it done.  since my art is all visual and i have NO musical talent or experience, i have a hard time getting my head around the creative process in other genres sometimes, and reconciling it with my own philosophy when it comes to art that makes me money; i.e. 'done is good.'  get it done; make the money.  that's how i'm used to it working for me.  so, that's just me trying to get my head around a different sort of creative process, which isn't easy for me.

You're very welcome. And I'm sorry that your field is full of thieves; on the "bright side," every field seems to be these days.
As far as "illegal downloads" go, some shit can't be helped, and I hope I didn't give you the impression we want to kick doors in looking for people who are "stealing." In fact, I discovered the band when a friend of mine sent me some shitty quality MP3s. I LOVED what I heard, looked into what the band had bought out, and within 15 minutes had ordered myself a copy of "A Is For Accident" (the only release that existed at the time).
I wasn't trying to come in here and come across as the town sheriff - pissed off and taking names - I just saw a discussion going on I could over some insight to, and tried to do that.

P.S. The "when is a song done" thing is a HUGEEEEE conversation in and of itself - and often, we're catching new material uploaded to YouTube like everyone else. It's REALLY rare Amanda specifically asks people not share stuff, but I suspect her decision is based at least partially on the perfect storm of technology finally getting to the point of enabling pretty much everyone to get a good quality recording, coupled with her insight as to how that might effect the way she wants to release material in the future.

eh, it's okay.  my field is full of a lot more than thieves, really.  i don't know any branch of art that doesn't (at least a lil bit) feed and steal bits off others, honestly...it just seems more easily gotten away with in this little rebellious pseudo-art land i live in.  often, at the customer's insistence.

and, no, i didn't think the doors were going to be kicked in at any point, lol.  in fact, picturing the lot of you as a threatening force is actually kind of endearing and cute.  not in a condescending way, but in more of an 'amanda posse' kind of way.  actually what i meant to illustrate was that i understand that yall understand that sometimes what is legally theft is actually promotion, i reckon.

ps---i have a huge tendency, when not doing 'job art; ie tattooing, but rather more on-paper types of things like portraits or whatever, to overwork a drawing to the point of fucking it up.  so, there is a point in knowing when to stop messing with a piece, i guess, that's more important sometimes than knowing what else to do to it.  no idea how that contrasts with songwriting and crafting, but for my part it also falls into the 'done is good' category; because overdone is obviously not good when it's visual.  amanda's mentioned in the past that she has a tendency to work and work and work on songs (i believe it was a blog or something about the year that went into refining wkap) and i sometimes wonder if overwork is also a problem......even though i can see how one can back up in the song process to a previous version and scrap a step or two, whereas one can't take ink or paint off the page as easily, so yeah.  i have no yardstick for comparison, but i can understand the process enough to sympathize with the dilemma of 'is it done yet' vs 'i cant stand to look at this shit another second.'  so to speak.
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BATTEREDxBRIDExLUVR!

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Re: I don't mean to complain but...
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2011, 02:15:02 PM »


ps---i have a huge tendency, when not doing 'job art; ie tattooing, but rather more on-paper types of things like portraits or whatever, to overwork a drawing to the point of fucking it up.  so, there is a point in knowing when to stop messing with a piece, i guess, that's more important sometimes than knowing what else to do to it.  no idea how that contrasts with songwriting and crafting, but for my part it also falls into the 'done is good' category; because overdone is obviously not good when it's visual.  amanda's mentioned in the past that she has a tendency to work and work and work on songs (i believe it was a blog or something about the year that went into refining wkap) and i sometimes wonder if overwork is also a problem......even though i can see how one can back up in the song process to a previous version and scrap a step or two, whereas one can't take ink or paint off the page as easily, so yeah.  i have no yardstick for comparison, but i can understand the process enough to sympathize with the dilemma of 'is it done yet' vs 'i cant stand to look at this shit another second.'  so to speak.

i think this is a really good point. i don't have much to say about it, but there is an example that i always thought was kind of interesting. it might be me reading too far into things, but that's okay.

in astronaut, there's the really hard hitting piano intro that we all know. once amanda started regularly playing it, it sounded the way it does on the album. but before wkap was released, she added a variation where after playing the first intro, she would play it an octave higher when it repeated.

while i don't actually know what amanda thought or wanted, i always thought it was an improvement, and i figured she agreed since she always played it that way. but i assumed was that the piano track on the album version had already been recorded before she came up with that which was why it wasn't on wkap.

i know that's really minor, and again, might just be me reading too far into things, but it was something that i always noticed and i figured i'd bring it up since it sort of ties into what Ag was saying.
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I do not want to live to archive my own life.
I see it everywhere around me, especially with the popularity of web diaries, forums, and cell phones that take pictures.
I do not want to fall into the subtle trap of truly believing I Blog Therefore I Am.
amanda, 2005-04-15

indeciSEAN

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Re: I don't mean to complain but...
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2011, 07:37:16 PM »


ps---i have a huge tendency, when not doing 'job art; ie tattooing, but rather more on-paper types of things like portraits or whatever, to overwork a drawing to the point of fucking it up.  so, there is a point in knowing when to stop messing with a piece, i guess, that's more important sometimes than knowing what else to do to it.  no idea how that contrasts with songwriting and crafting, but for my part it also falls into the 'done is good' category; because overdone is obviously not good when it's visual.  amanda's mentioned in the past that she has a tendency to work and work and work on songs (i believe it was a blog or something about the year that went into refining wkap) and i sometimes wonder if overwork is also a problem......even though i can see how one can back up in the song process to a previous version and scrap a step or two, whereas one can't take ink or paint off the page as easily, so yeah.  i have no yardstick for comparison, but i can understand the process enough to sympathize with the dilemma of 'is it done yet' vs 'i cant stand to look at this shit another second.'  so to speak.

i think this is a really good point. i don't have much to say about it, but there is an example that i always thought was kind of interesting. it might be me reading too far into things, but that's okay.

in astronaut, there's the really hard hitting piano intro that we all know. once amanda started regularly playing it, it sounded the way it does on the album. but before wkap was released, she added a variation where after playing the first intro, she would play it an octave higher when it repeated.

while i don't actually know what amanda thought or wanted, i always thought it was an improvement, and i figured she agreed since she always played it that way. but i assumed was that the piano track on the album version had already been recorded before she came up with that which was why it wasn't on wkap.

i know that's really minor, and again, might just be me reading too far into things, but it was something that i always noticed and i figured i'd bring it up since it sort of ties into what Ag was saying.

I think I know what you're referring to but do you happen to know of any YouTube links off the top of your head for me know, for sure?
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BATTEREDxBRIDExLUVR!

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Re: I don't mean to complain but...
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2011, 08:55:01 PM »


ps---i have a huge tendency, when not doing 'job art; ie tattooing, but rather more on-paper types of things like portraits or whatever, to overwork a drawing to the point of fucking it up.  so, there is a point in knowing when to stop messing with a piece, i guess, that's more important sometimes than knowing what else to do to it.  no idea how that contrasts with songwriting and crafting, but for my part it also falls into the 'done is good' category; because overdone is obviously not good when it's visual.  amanda's mentioned in the past that she has a tendency to work and work and work on songs (i believe it was a blog or something about the year that went into refining wkap) and i sometimes wonder if overwork is also a problem......even though i can see how one can back up in the song process to a previous version and scrap a step or two, whereas one can't take ink or paint off the page as easily, so yeah.  i have no yardstick for comparison, but i can understand the process enough to sympathize with the dilemma of 'is it done yet' vs 'i cant stand to look at this shit another second.'  so to speak.

i think this is a really good point. i don't have much to say about it, but there is an example that i always thought was kind of interesting. it might be me reading too far into things, but that's okay.

in astronaut, there's the really hard hitting piano intro that we all know. once amanda started regularly playing it, it sounded the way it does on the album. but before wkap was released, she added a variation where after playing the first intro, she would play it an octave higher when it repeated.

while i don't actually know what amanda thought or wanted, i always thought it was an improvement, and i figured she agreed since she always played it that way. but i assumed was that the piano track on the album version had already been recorded before she came up with that which was why it wasn't on wkap.

i know that's really minor, and again, might just be me reading too far into things, but it was something that i always noticed and i figured i'd bring it up since it sort of ties into what Ag was saying.

I think I know what you're referring to but do you happen to know of any YouTube links off the top of your head for me know, for sure?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f08Hvkfv4f8

song starts at :46, the octave change i mentioned is at :54.

my internet is going slow so i couldn't look too hard for a video. it's funny how all of the fan videos have the beginning cut off... that song always did start suddenly haha.
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I do not want to live to archive my own life.
I see it everywhere around me, especially with the popularity of web diaries, forums, and cell phones that take pictures.
I do not want to fall into the subtle trap of truly believing I Blog Therefore I Am.
amanda, 2005-04-15

indeciSEAN

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Re: I don't mean to complain but...
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2011, 09:00:31 AM »


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f08Hvkfv4f8

song starts at :46, the octave change i mentioned is at :54.

my internet is going slow so i couldn't look too hard for a video. it's funny how all of the fan videos have the beginning cut off... that song always did start suddenly haha.


i'd be curious if it's purely pseudo-improvisational; i just went through a couple of youtube clips from oz and didn't hear the octave change in any of those. one thing's for sure, i'm always surprised how few people realize when she's about to play it.
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