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Author Topic: from the Science Desk  (Read 35324 times)

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imaginary friend

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from the Science Desk
« on: June 20, 2011, 04:24:44 PM »

so I don't start a new thread every time some science-oriented story catches my eye.

up first:    http://io9.com/5813537/female-frogs-literally-cant-hear-half-the-things-that-male-frogs-say

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2011, 11:21:39 AM »

map showing polar ice caps' thickness:    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13829785

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2011, 01:23:54 PM »

not sure it qualifies as 100% science, but it's definitely a fun read:   http://io9.com/5813475/10-psychological-states-youve-never-heard-of--and-when-you-experienced-them

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2011, 03:05:22 PM »

This is one of my new favourite threads. Bravo.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2011, 05:23:53 PM »

agreed, i like reading these things
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2011, 05:31:58 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2011, 12:56:20 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2011, 12:09:05 AM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2011, 04:01:08 PM »

not sure it qualifies as 100% science, but it's definitely a fun read:   http://io9.com/5813475/10-psychological-states-youve-never-heard-of--and-when-you-experienced-them

#@!


Mental states are very ill defined and not very scientific.  That said, I enjoyed the read anyway.

I posted this before but I feel it is worth re-posting because I'm not sure many people saw it:

http://primaxstudio.com/stuff/scale_of_universe/
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2011, 12:38:43 AM »

http://io9.com/5814258/gorgeous-photographs-of-a-naked-woman-taming-beluga-whales-in-frozen-arctic-waters

so unreal it's real.

#@!

amanda's swimming with whales?

there is a good resmblance,
i could see a being able to hold her breath for ten minutes,
but not getting within 1,000 miles of water that COLD
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2011, 12:55:39 AM »

I posted this before but I feel it is worth re-posting because I'm not sure many people saw it:

http://primaxstudio.com/stuff/scale_of_universe/

here is the reply i posted last time

nicely done!

reminds me of the Eames'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_of_Ten
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2011, 04:37:52 PM »

"test tube" meat:     http://www.delish.com/food/recalls-reviews/scientists-growing-test-tube-ground-beef-burger-in-lab?GT1=47001

as long as I've got some pickle chips, I'm down.   :glasses9:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2011, 05:41:04 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2011, 07:11:34 PM »

the link says it all, really:     http://io9.com/5817623/the-water-boatmans-singing-penis-makes-it-the-loudest-animal-in-the-world

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...wow.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2011, 11:21:09 AM »

storm circles Saturn so fast it catches its own tail:





 :D

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2011, 03:38:44 PM »

storm circles Saturn so fast it catches its own tail:





 :D

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this is SO FUCKING COOL! i dont at all understand how that works, but i dont CARE it looks AWESOME!!
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2011, 06:28:51 PM »

rainbow toad rediscovered 87 years after one was last seen:      http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/07/13/7077825-lost-rainbow-toad-rediscovered




 :icon_farao:  :D

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2011, 12:41:16 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2011, 06:28:49 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2011, 10:57:12 AM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2011, 08:48:09 AM »

rainbow toad rediscovered 87 years after one was last seen:      http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/07/13/7077825-lost-rainbow-toad-rediscovered




 :icon_farao:  :D

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But does he have any powers?

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2011, 10:55:00 AM »

ALL HAIL HYPNOTOAD
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2011, 06:56:33 PM »

http://io9.com/5822917/treasure-hunters-find-bizarre-spaceship+like-object-at-the-bottom-of-the-baltic-sea

Looks awesome but it is definitely early to get too excited...

As Neil Tyson has pointed out it seems very unlikely that aliens who figured out inter planetary travel also struggled with landings.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2011, 07:11:07 PM »

http://io9.com/5822917/treasure-hunters-find-bizarre-spaceship+like-object-at-the-bottom-of-the-baltic-sea

Looks awesome but it is definitely early to get too excited...

As Neil Tyson has pointed out it seems very unlikely that aliens who figured out inter planetary travel also struggled with landings.
Inter-planetary is easy compared to launch & landing...

Anyway, you send your advance probe, it lands somewhere on the ice sheet and collects a core-sample
that tells you there's a mile of solid rock under the ice...  So you send your big-ass space ship, land on
the same sheet of ice, and boy are you surprised to find out it's only 20 or 30 feet of ice with WATER
underneath at this spot...   :o
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2011, 05:04:49 AM »

I think it may well be the broken seal that has kept ....Them from rising from the depths to once again claim this planet as their own........
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2011, 08:00:14 AM »

this is really fascinating.....and potentially could lead us down the whole Biotech revolution which to be honest is far more useful than hard tech will ever get....
http://www.innovationnewsdaily.com/dna-genetic-engineering-find-replace-2140/
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2011, 08:19:16 AM »

this is really fascinating.....and potentially could lead us down the whole Biotech revolution which to be honest is far more useful than hard tech will ever get....
http://www.innovationnewsdaily.com/dna-genetic-engineering-find-replace-2140/

The big jump will be when we can build a genetic code from scratch though this will help with the trial and error so we can learn what certain segments of code will do.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2011, 01:33:30 PM »

one third of the world's population has some form of hepatitis:   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43895748/ns/health-infectious_diseases/t/third-world-infected-hepatitis-who/

:(

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2011, 01:36:02 PM »

one third of the world's population has some form of hepatitis:   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43895748/ns/health-infectious_diseases/t/third-world-infected-hepatitis-who/

:(

#@!
and you managed to spread almost entirely on your own....
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2011, 06:22:29 PM »

this is really fascinating.....and potentially could lead us down the whole Biotech revolution which to be honest is far more useful than hard tech will ever get....
http://www.innovationnewsdaily.com/dna-genetic-engineering-find-replace-2140/

I half agree with you.  Hard tech will be just as important but I do believe that one day all the hard tech we use will also be integrated into our bodies so the barrier between them gets blurry.

I'd bet heavily that alien civilizations that are millions of years more advanced than us (or even much less than that) rarely, if ever, use external devices.  Everything is integrated into their bodies in a combination of cybernetic implants and genetic engineering (each will be more useful for different things).
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2011, 06:57:03 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2011, 01:35:38 AM »

this is really fascinating.....and potentially could lead us down the whole Biotech revolution which to be honest is far more useful than hard tech will ever get....
http://www.innovationnewsdaily.com/dna-genetic-engineering-find-replace-2140/

I half agree with you.  Hard tech will be just as important but I do believe that one day all the hard tech we use will also be integrated into our bodies so the barrier between them gets blurry.

I'd bet heavily that alien civilizations that are millions of years more advanced than us (or even much less than that) rarely, if ever, use external devices.  Everything is integrated into their bodies in a combination of cybernetic implants and genetic engineering (each will be more useful for different things).
I have always maintained that the manipulation of biology has far more potential than the micing of biology with hard tech......look at our attempts at artificial intelligence....if we got past the ick factor we could have been growing cutom brains instead decades ago......
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2011, 05:45:30 PM »

this is really fascinating.....and potentially could lead us down the whole Biotech revolution which to be honest is far more useful than hard tech will ever get....
http://www.innovationnewsdaily.com/dna-genetic-engineering-find-replace-2140/

I half agree with you.  Hard tech will be just as important but I do believe that one day all the hard tech we use will also be integrated into our bodies so the barrier between them gets blurry.

I'd bet heavily that alien civilizations that are millions of years more advanced than us (or even much less than that) rarely, if ever, use external devices.  Everything is integrated into their bodies in a combination of cybernetic implants and genetic engineering (each will be more useful for different things).
I have always maintained that the manipulation of biology has far more potential than the micing of biology with hard tech

I think there are mechanics in physics that fight you on that.  Biologically grown brains don't have the potential to have transistors as small as they can be on a quantum level.  Pure biology also does not seem to have the potential to be as strong as carbon fiber like what we might use to reinforce our bodies at some point.

Both manipulated biology and inorganic components both have their use.

......look at our attempts at artificial intelligence....if we got past the ick factor we could have been growing cutom brains instead decades ago......

I think that's definitely not true.  Neurology is a fast growing but still a very new science.  I agree that we could have been enhancing our brains sooner that we will end up doing because of technophobia though.

I know I'm not adverse to such things... I'd be very interested in genetic enhancements put in with the "find and replace" technology you posted once it is fully developed.  I'm cautiously optimistic that such things will be available while we're still around.

...I'm also really hoping that this man's research has matured before I get too old.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2011, 03:38:44 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2011, 12:13:20 PM »

red wine may help prevent sunburn:     http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20086913-10391704.html

 :glasses9:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2011, 04:41:22 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2011, 07:19:52 PM »

NASA launched the Juno probe to explore Jupiter today...but the most important part of the mission is the LEGO crew on board!




 :glasses9: :headbang:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2011, 12:22:27 PM »

antimatter discovered in orbit around Earth:    http://io9.com/5828449/thin-belt-of-antimatter-discovered-above-earth

 :D

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2011, 10:53:40 AM »

you can help find the Higgs boson:    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14488797

 :glasses9: :glasses9:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2011, 11:47:44 PM »

i wish i could find the article about the subcutaneous screen.  it's powered by blood flow, and i want one.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2011, 11:39:59 AM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2011, 02:38:19 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2011, 03:02:06 PM »

holy shit:    http://io9.com/5830071/breakthrough-electronic-circuits-that-are-integrated-into-your-skin


 :o

#@!
This is incredible and wonderful and terrifying... all at the same time.

Cyberpunk is edging closer and closer.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2011, 03:07:21 PM »

yep we will all be living in a William Gibson novel within ten years
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2011, 12:49:06 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2011, 02:02:43 AM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2011, 07:25:07 PM »

betcha never even thought about this:   http://io9.com/5831558/what-is-the-speed-of-smell

#@!

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2011, 10:59:40 AM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2011, 12:57:02 PM »

Bering Strait train tunnel gains support:   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44212283/ns/world_news-europe/?gt1=43001#.Tk_AF13ayus

#@!

Only 60 billion  :o

The big dig was 22 billion hell this is a bargain, split the cost with Russia and it is only a little more (and my city wont be flooded with rats).  We would be stupid not to do this, imagine taking the train to China  :headbang:
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2011, 03:10:22 PM »

ya gotta admit, though - NYC to London by train would be awesome!  :glasses9:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2011, 05:16:19 PM »

nyc-london underwater tunnel.  hell yeah.  make it out of plexiglass.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2011, 05:54:42 PM »

nyc to london?  

yes. a Bering Straits tunnel is cost effective,
and Sarah Palin should be able to afford this out of pocket change ; - }

i wonder if the $7 billion annual income estimate,
considers the cost of snow and ice removal in the cold season
thousands of miles of track to keep open



oh, you want the Atlantic?  
get back to me when the UK to Ireland tunnel is done
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2011, 06:05:59 PM »



oh, you want the Atlantic?  



i want the whole world.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2011, 06:13:11 PM »

oh, you want the Atlantic? 
i want the whole world.

every island tunneled or bridged to?
regardless of size?
or what the owner of the island wants?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2011, 06:55:47 PM »

nyc-london underwater tunnel.  hell yeah.  make it out of plexiglass.

Mid-Atlantic Rift. Better make that tunnel out of something really stretchy.

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2011, 07:16:26 PM »

oh, you want the Atlantic?  
i want the whole world.

every island tunneled or bridged to?
regardless of size?
or what the owner of the island wants?

well now there you go, assuming i can answer these questions that have to do with fact and reason.  i just want the world, man.  if the world were given to me, the owners of the islands would all be....me, and i am always certain that i as an owner will always be okay with whatever i want.



and if through some bizare means of fate i actually DO ge the world, you'll want to be ever so nice to me should you ever want there to be a len tower-tunnel named after you.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2011, 08:34:24 PM »

nyc-london underwater tunnel.  hell yeah.  make it out of plexiglass.

Mid-Atlantic Rift. Better make that tunnel out of something really stretchy.

#@!

the cheapest to construct route probably goes through Iceland,
so the stretching would be above ground
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2011, 08:36:08 PM »

oh, you want the Atlantic? 
i want the whole world.
every island tunneled or bridged to?
regardless of size?
or what the owner of the island wants?
well now there you go, assuming i can answer these questions that have to do with fact and reason.  i just want the world, man.  if the world were given to me, the owners of the islands would all be....me, and i am always certain that i as an owner will always be okay with whatever i want.

and if through some bizare means of fate i actually DO ge the world, you'll want to be ever so nice to me should you ever want there to be a len tower-tunnel named after you.

when have i ever been deliberately not nice to you?

my default is reason & logic
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2011, 12:57:36 AM »

using lasers to enrich uranium is looking a lot more practical:    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44216898/ns/technology_and_science-the_new_york_times/#.TlCKIF3ayus

as with anything uranium-related, there's a downside as well.

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2011, 07:02:58 AM »

oh, you want the Atlantic?  
i want the whole world.
every island tunneled or bridged to?
regardless of size?
or what the owner of the island wants?
well now there you go, assuming i can answer these questions that have to do with fact and reason.  i just want the world, man.  if the world were given to me, the owners of the islands would all be....me, and i am always certain that i as an owner will always be okay with whatever i want.

and if through some bizare means of fate i actually DO ge the world, you'll want to be ever so nice to me should you ever want there to be a len tower-tunnel named after you.

when have i ever been deliberately not nice to you?

my default is reason & logic
I'm certain all of what she just said was a joke.  Go with it, dude.

subtle humor lost on a brit?

or was it?

i'm sure Ag got it ; - }
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2011, 11:25:17 AM »

earth's oldest fossils (at least so far) found:     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOugYXSfNow&feature=player_embedded

 :icon_farao:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2011, 06:16:04 PM »

earth's oldest fossils (at least so far) found:     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOugYXSfNow&feature=player_embedded

 :icon_farao:

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Wrong link?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2011, 12:38:15 AM »

let's try this one:    http://io9.com/5833063/scientists-have-discovered-the-oldest-fossils-on-earth--and-theyre-australian

 :icon_farao:

#@!
The first thing that popped into my mind when I read that headline was Rupert Murdoch.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2011, 03:51:22 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2011, 08:01:40 PM »

holy hell, it's five time the size of earth.  i bet that gets us back into space in a red hot hurry.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2011, 06:22:11 PM »

^   :glasses9:

new species of wasp discovered on the Indonesian island of Sulawesi:



it's 4 cm long!

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2011, 04:21:26 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #79 on: August 30, 2011, 10:58:11 AM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #80 on: August 30, 2011, 07:41:27 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #81 on: September 05, 2011, 07:21:15 PM »

single-molecule electric motor:     http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14763223

we can haz nanotech?  :D

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #82 on: September 06, 2011, 08:15:39 PM »

see the tracks left by some of the Apollo astronauts:




 :glasses9:

...fuck, this country used to fucking rule.

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #83 on: September 06, 2011, 08:21:04 PM »

see the tracks left by some of the Apollo astronauts:




 :glasses9:

...fuck, this country used to fucking rule.

#@!
An obvious fake. Anyone can use photoshop to put tracks on the moon.  >:D

*straightens tinfoil hat and returns to bunker*
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #84 on: September 06, 2011, 08:40:41 PM »

WHY havent we been back to the moon, and why havent the other countries done it too to show everybody they can?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #85 on: September 06, 2011, 09:24:04 PM »

WHY havent we been back to the moon, and why havent the other countries done it too to show everybody they can?


because it's way more productive to have a dick-measuring contest, obvs.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #86 on: September 06, 2011, 09:43:32 PM »

WHY havent we been back to the moon, and why havent the other countries done it too to show everybody they can?


because it's way more productive to have a dick-measuring contest, obvs.
wouldn't cock size be immeasurable to the first colonists on the moon?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #87 on: September 06, 2011, 10:20:21 PM »

WHY havent we been back to the moon, and why havent the other countries done it too to show everybody they can?


because it's way more productive to have a dick-measuring contest, obvs.
wouldn't cock size be immeasurable to the first colonists on the moon?
They will be ranked by cock size. It's all in the plans NASA have in their secret cupboard.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #88 on: September 06, 2011, 11:40:43 PM »

WHY havent we been back to the moon, and why havent the other countries done it too to show everybody they can?


because it's way more productive to have a dick-measuring contest, obvs.
wouldn't cock size be immeasurable to the first colonists on the moon?
They will be ranked by cock size. It's all in the plans NASA have in their secret cupboard.
in the lunar colony, cock judges you.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #89 on: September 06, 2011, 11:42:34 PM »

WHY havent we been back to the moon, and why havent the other countries done it too to show everybody they can?


because it's way more productive to have a dick-measuring contest, obvs.
wouldn't cock size be immeasurable to the first colonists on the moon?
They will be ranked by cock size. It's all in the plans NASA have in their secret cupboard.
in the lunar colony, cock judges you.
Didn't I see that movie on MST3K once?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #90 on: September 07, 2011, 08:26:50 PM »

I never thought I'd say that a story about invasive species sounded like a good thing...but:     http://io9.com/5838045/the-giant-crab-invasion-of-antarctica-has-begun


 :) fire up the stockpot and break out the Old Bay!  :)

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #91 on: September 10, 2011, 12:55:27 AM »



sadly, doesn't show the
Mass Extinction
currently going on
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #92 on: September 10, 2011, 07:13:24 AM »

Interesting how narrow the avian line is.....shows just how close they came to not making it through the K/T boundary
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #93 on: September 12, 2011, 03:37:17 PM »

fun video:


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/BS5vid4GkEY" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/BS5vid4GkEY</a>


 :glasses9:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #94 on: September 13, 2011, 03:39:32 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #95 on: September 15, 2011, 07:27:38 PM »

 a series of articles on human enhancement - using various technologies to improve and/or go beyond the "normal" human body:

http://www.slate.com/id/2303277/entry/2303278/

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #96 on: September 15, 2011, 07:42:23 PM »

a series of articles on human enhancement - using various technologies to improve and/or go beyond the "normal" human body:

http://www.slate.com/id/2303277/entry/2303278/

#@!



There is no rational objection to transhumanism.  It is only technophobia that makes people doubt it is in our interests.

"Technophobia" is a word I've become quite fond of lately... it often appears in discussions of technology.  You can always spot it easily.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2011, 12:30:54 AM »

I'm just a little leery of anyone who tries to "improve" technology they can't replicate....
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #99 on: September 16, 2011, 07:34:47 AM »

I'm just a little leery of anyone who tries to "improve" technology they can't replicate....

; - }
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #100 on: September 16, 2011, 09:35:59 PM »

I'm just a little leery of anyone who tries to "improve" technology they can't replicate....

On the contrary, it is always much easier to find improvements than to come up with something in the first place.

Part of the reason we know evolution happened is because of many components in us and other animals that make no sense at all and/or are less desirable now that we live in civilization and not the wild.  There is great opportunity for improvement.  It is not fundamentally different than curing a genetic disease.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2011, 09:45:15 PM »

It is not fundamentally different than curing a genetic disease.

....and that's been done how many times? 

I believe you will find that the answer is ZERO.  We've managed to find tests to identify people
at risk (or whose future offspring will be at risk), and to treat some symptoms of some disorders,
and to begin preventive therapy to delay the worst effects of a few, but no cures.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #102 on: September 16, 2011, 10:00:15 PM »

It is not fundamentally different than curing a genetic disease.

....and that's been done how many times? 

I believe you will find that the answer is ZERO.  We've managed to find tests to identify people
at risk (or whose future offspring will be at risk), and to treat some symptoms of some disorders,
and to begin preventive therapy to delay the worst effects of a few, but no cures.

Look into what has been done in laboratories recently using gene therapy.  The results are extremely promising.

And besides, that's not at all my point.

You want us to research how to cure such things right?  If you look up the latest developments in gene therapy you'll know this is inevitable.  From there, looking for improvement is the next logical step.

You should also look into the developments that have been made in engineering crops and live stock that produce more food and resist disease.  Tremendous progress has been made.

Your point of not being able to replicate the technology is fading fast as well.  We've already created fully synthetic organisms.  It's just a matter of time.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #103 on: September 16, 2011, 10:11:51 PM »

It is not fundamentally different than curing a genetic disease.

....and that's been done how many times? 

I believe you will find that the answer is ZERO.  We've managed to find tests to identify people
at risk (or whose future offspring will be at risk), and to treat some symptoms of some disorders,
and to begin preventive therapy to delay the worst effects of a few, but no cures.

Look into what has been done in laboratories recently using gene therapy.  The results are extremely promising.

And besides, that's not at all my point.

You want us to research how to cure such things right?  If you look up the latest developments in gene therapy you'll know this is inevitable.  From there, looking for improvement is the next logical step.

You should also look into the developments that have been made in engineering crops and live stock that produce more food and resist disease.  Tremendous progress has been made.

Your point of not being able to replicate the technology is fading fast as well.  We've already created fully synthetic organisms.  It's just a matter of time.
True, there are numerous promising "gene therapies", but they don't actually treat genetic
disorders - rather they treat other sorts of disease, cancer for example.... and for the most
part, while some results are promising, they haven't actually cured anything yet.

As for gen-mod food crops, they have been developed for resistance to specific pests and
diseases, but it turns out the enemies are counter-adapting, and there are indications that
those same modifications may make the crops harmful to us...

In short, once again, these people are tinkering with stuff they don't fully understand, and
until the potential consequences can at least be estimated, it's a bad idea.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2011, 10:53:18 PM »

In short, once again, these people are tinkering with stuff they don't fully understand, and
until the potential consequences can at least be estimated, it's a bad idea.

Cee is right, much more care need to be taken with this technology.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2011, 11:51:15 PM »

In short, once again, these people are tinkering with stuff they don't fully understand, and
until the potential consequences can at least be estimated, it's a bad idea.

Cee is right, much more care need to be taken with this technology.

No body said there were not risks but I consider them to be very minor relative to the the number of people that have been saved already by biotechnology.

But yes... lots of testing on rats... than testing on small numbers of volunteers... it certainly needs to be done in controlled phases.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2011, 11:53:41 PM »

In short, once again, these people are tinkering with stuff they don't fully understand, and
until the potential consequences can at least be estimated, it's a bad idea.

Cee is right, much more care need to be taken with this technology.

No body said there were not risks but I consider them to be very minor relative to the the number of people that have been saved already by biotechnology.

But yes... lots of testing on rats... than testing on small numbers of volunteers... it certainly needs to be done in controlled phases.

we disagree about the facts and the urgency
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #107 on: September 17, 2011, 12:51:51 AM »

I'll give ya a real-world for-example...

Among the "desirable" traits for many of these engineered crops is an inability to reproduce themselves.
That allows Monsanto et al to sell a new batch of (patented) seed-grains every season, rather than having
farmers simply set aside a portion of last-season's harvest for next season's planting... They create pollen,
but the seeds are sterile.

Trouble is, pollen from the sterile fields has been blowing onto neighboring farms, and it's wiping out other
farmers' re-planting ability along with the guys who planted the GM seeds.  Adding insult to injury, Monsanto
is actually suing some of the neighboring farms for (they allege) stealing the patented genetic makeup of the
modified plants.  See how this might become a serious problem? See also: Potato Famine.

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #108 on: September 17, 2011, 12:03:22 PM »

In short, once again, these people are tinkering with stuff they don't fully understand, and
until the potential consequences can at least be estimated, it's a bad idea.

Cee is right, much more care need to be taken with this technology.

No body said there were not risks but I consider them to be very minor relative to the the number of people that have been saved already by biotechnology.

But yes... lots of testing on rats... than testing on small numbers of volunteers... it certainly needs to be done in controlled phases.

we disagree about the facts and the urgency

Exactly what facts did I say that you disagreed with?  And I don't believe I said anything very specific about urgency so I'm not sure you could disagree with me there.

I'll give ya a real-world for-example...

Among the "desirable" traits for many of these engineered crops is an inability to reproduce themselves.
That allows Monsanto et al to sell a new batch of (patented) seed-grains every season, rather than having
farmers simply set aside a portion of last-season's harvest for next season's planting... They create pollen,
but the seeds are sterile.

Trouble is, pollen from the sterile fields has been blowing onto neighboring farms, and it's wiping out other
farmers' re-planting ability along with the guys who planted the GM seeds.  Adding insult to injury, Monsanto
is actually suing some of the neighboring farms for (they allege) stealing the patented genetic makeup of the
modified plants.  See how this might become a serious problem?

Monsanto are world class dicks who need to have their ass handed to them in a big lawsuit but I thought we were discussing the merits of the technology itself.

I'd still prefer Monsanto's bullshit over letting 2 billion people starve buy going back to "natural" means of food production.

See also: Potato Famine.

If you are talking about the Irish potato famine I really don't see how that would help your case one iota.  That disaster predated modern means of food production and could have been prevented if they did have modern means.  After all, can you think of any modern famines in developed countries?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #109 on: September 17, 2011, 02:00:15 PM »

the irish potato famine could have been prevented
if they had used a lot of different potato varieties,
instead of just two.

the incas in the andes, who first used potatos as food, had thousands of varieties,
and though there were a number of plant disease attacks over the centuries,
none of them could wipe out all the varieties.
the incas never had a potato famine,
they did have a few lean years,
where potatos had to be shared across the empire

it's not a question of modern versus ancient means.
it's a question of understanding how life works,
and NOT taking mega-profit-driven shortcuts around it

our race and all those we share the planet with
has lost more in the medium and long run
when we have done so

Monsanto's bullshit has little to do with feeding those 2 billion people.
that belief is bullshit you've been sold

people starve because the too much land in their countries is used to grow
export crops to make the wealthy money, instead of feeding everyone

there is also the questions of droughts, etc.
where food has to be brought in from elsewhere.
those relief efforts that fail, do because:
* some groups use force (guns, etc) to prevent it
* those with money refuse to support the effort

as a race, we would all be better off,
if we regulated greed more,
and respected the realities of bio-diversity



homo sapiens?
wise apes?

more clever but foolish apes ...

too clever

not at all clear that technology is a species survival trait

we are the first known species to use it so heavily,
and the population growth and resource use patterns we have
are those of species that have gone extinct
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #110 on: September 17, 2011, 02:29:06 PM »




homo sapiens?
wise apes?

more clever but foolish apes ...

too clever

not at all clear that technology is a species survival trait

we are the first known species to use it so heavily,
and the population growth and resource use patterns we have
are those of species that have gone extinct


one of the things that separates human animals from the garden variety kind is adaptability.  other species died out not from lesser technology, but rather from having no technology.  humans are adaptable enough to survive in almost any environment, because they have the ability to change their surroundings enough to survive.

granted we are destroying our environment at an alarming rate.  but, i just don't think that's enough to kill us off, honestly.  it's the other species that suffer from our advancement, not us.  as i see it, human's greatest need right now is controlling our birth rates, and improving the quality of life for the births we are already stuck with.  

the greatest problem with humanity, as i see it, is this newly cultivated idea (which in part was brought to us by technology) that every single person's life is sacred and equal, and worth preserving.  animals do not feel this way.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #112 on: September 17, 2011, 03:08:56 PM »

ag

Cee and I pointed out one case where over dependence on a mono-culture (ok, two varieties) killed millions.  Have you yet to realize how much human argiculture is using fewer and fewer varieties of plants and animals to feed us?  And what the danger of that is?

Have you yet to realize that the global ecosystem is in the midst of the greatest of the half dozen known mass extinctions in the history of life?  And what that means?

Have you yet to realize what species is causing that mass extinction?  And why?

I could go on with these, but this is more than enough for now.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2011, 03:12:45 PM »

Almost a real life Tatooine....

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/distant-planet-similar-star-wars-tattooine-circles-twin/story?id=14512728

just have to warm it up a few hundred degrees,
and take baout 99% of the mass away ; - }

and Lucas didn't come up with the idea of a planet
orbiting binary stars.
he just is the best known popularizer of it
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2011, 03:15:05 PM »

the greatest problem with humanity, as i see it, is this newly cultivated idea (which in part was brought to us by technology) that every single person's life is sacred and equal, and worth preserving.  animals do not feel this way.

the problem that comes out of this,
if you buy it,
is:

who JUDGES who gets perserved?
and by what criteria?


the Nazis in '30s and '40s Germany had one set of answers

the Communist Party in China has another

etc.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2011, 03:19:48 PM »

ag

Cee and I pointed out one case where over dependence on a mono-culture (ok, two varieties) killed millions.  Have you yet to realize how much human argiculture is using fewer and fewer varieties of plants and animals to feed us?  And what the danger of that is?

Have you yet to realize that the global ecosystem is in the midst of the greatest of the half dozen known mass extinctions in the history of life?  And what that means?

Have you yet to realize what species is causing that mass extinction?  And why?

I could go on with these, but this is more than enough for now.


--i realize agriculture is using fewer and fewer products to feed the MAJORITY of us.  and yes, i realize the impact that has on a group.  our dependence on high fructose corn syrup is going to kill us.  the very soda i am drinking is out to get me as i type.  i know this, yes.  but i disagree that it is the norm across the board.  wealthier (and more educated) households can afford to use more than two food groups.  and they will, while the rest of us starve to death on stale sugar.

--'greatest half dozen extinctions?'  really?  do you not believe in dinosaurs, then?

--i know which species is causing any extinctions that have anything to do with the last eight thousand years, at least.  we are not a moderate nor respectful creature.  this doesn't bother me, however.  it wouldn't be as much of a problem if there were not so many of us.  consider the buffalo, which also overbreeds and kicks the shit out of its habitat.  


i know you could go on.  and i agree with you on many more levels than i let on.  but, i maintain the problem is unchecked breeding and our environmental ravages are symptomatic of this.  clearly, our collective id is outweighing our need to preserve (human) life at all costs, no matter the cost to the environment or social or economic ramifications.  it's rigodamndiculous to expect any of it to change for the better when our collective respect for (human) life outweighs our respect for either future (human) life, or current environmental conditions.

the earth will heal itself, i assure you.  whether that healing sustains levels of life that we are accustomed to is anybody's guess.  i have no doubt that unless the surface of the planet becomes completely covered with lava or something, that at least enough of us will survive to fuck it all up again, because we are that adaptable.



the greatest problem with humanity, as i see it, is this newly cultivated idea (which in part was brought to us by technology) that every single person's life is sacred and equal, and worth preserving.  animals do not feel this way.

the problem that comes out of this,
if you buy it,
is:

who JUDGES who gets perserved?
and by what criteria?


the Nazis in '30s and '40s Germany had one set of answers

the Communist Party in China has another

etc.

i didn't say it was a pretty solution.  i didn't even say i trust anyone to make those decisions.  i am too conditioned otherwise to seriously suggest an emotionless change in our ways today, or even tomorrow.  and yes, i know the nazis had one set of answers, and i know stalin and pol pot have done their part, and i agree that it is a heinous way to approach the situation.  eugenics itself isn't pretty, as we have discussed elsewhere.  even the more applicable and altruistic ideas are subject to desecration and the natural horror we as a species bring to each other.

on the other hand..........it's what we do.  yeah, hitler's a good example.  but there are pages and pages and pages of examples.  without looking at the social ramifications at all, and by witholding our natural empathy towards situations like that....how is it different than a male deer culling fawns because there are too many born in a season in an area?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2011, 03:26:44 PM »

mass extinctions are measured by the number of species killed off,
not the size of the creatures

the large creatures near the top of food chains have a higher chance
of going extinct

we're unlikely to kill off all life on Earth.
much more likely to kill off our species along with countless others



the wealthy will have trouble buying their diverse diets,
if any one of the major mono-culture food plants get killed off

homo sapiens is not smart enough to survive without the global ecosystem.
we might possibly gain enough knowledge and wisdom in time to do do,
but it seems unlikley it will be soon enough

the complexity involved is greater than the complexity of the human mind
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #117 on: September 17, 2011, 03:30:49 PM »

mass extinctions are measured by the number of species killed off,
not the size of the creatures

the larger creatures at the top of food chains have a higher chance
of going extinct



the wealthy will have trouble buying their diverse diets,
if any one of the major mono-culture food plants get killed off

homo sapiens is not smart enough to survive without the global ecosystem.
we might possibly gain enough knowledge and wisdom in time to do do,
but it seems unlikley it will be soon enough

the complexity involved is greater than the complexity of the human mind



i know how mass extinctions are measured; my point is that with dinosaurs, ALL of their kind were killed off, except like, tortoises and bugs.  it was a global dominance shift in species altogether.  i didn't mean that dinosaurs were large; i'm not a moron.

homo sapiens is most certainly smart enough to survive without the global ecosystem.  remember the ice age?  we did fine.  will all of us survive?  hell no, ninety percent of us are not worth the resources we consume now (hence the problem).  but a few will, most assuredly.  if the wealthy can't afford their food even through the black market, another form of currency will of course be established.  i've seen this species do incredible things in the name of survival.  if you need a metaphor, watch what any politician does in terms of social survival.  i wouldnt want to compete with something like that for food.  trust me, if there is a way, a human will find it.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #118 on: September 17, 2011, 03:57:51 PM »

during the ice ages, the homo * species survived, mostly,
in the equatorial regions where they wasn't any ice. 
nothing of our complexity survived on top of the ice. 
some survived along the edges.

you have another example?

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #119 on: September 17, 2011, 09:06:50 PM »

the irish potato famine could have been prevented
if they had used a lot of different potato varieties,
instead of just two.

the incas in the andes, who first used potatos as food, had thousands of varieties,
and though there were a number of plant disease attacks over the centuries,
none of them could wipe out all the varieties.
the incas never had a potato famine,
they did have a few lean years,
where potatos had to be shared across the empire

it's not a question of modern versus ancient means.
it's a question of understanding how life works,
and NOT taking mega-profit-driven shortcuts around it

I don't need you to explain to me why biological diversity is useful.  What I do need more explanation on is why biotech would result in less diversity.  I think it will result in much, much more.

people starve because the too much land in their countries is used to grow
export crops to make the wealthy money, instead of feeding everyone

there is also the questions of droughts, etc.
where food has to be brought in from elsewhere.
those relief efforts that fail, do because:
* some groups use force (guns, etc) to prevent it
* those with money refuse to support the effort

The fact is that the total amount of food we produce is too small.  It's not just a question of how it is allocated (though that does cause problems).  If Earth's population reaches 9 billion we'll of course need to produce more and more food.  Switching to entirely organic means would force total food production to take a dive.

And no, this isn't really about Monsanto.  They are just one firm working on it and not even the first.  Scientists like Norman Borlaug helped prevent many people from starving to death by teaching them how to increase crop yields with "unnatural" means.  He even won a Nobel Peace prize for it.

Norman Borlaug is also the one who said 2 billion people would have to starve if we switched entirely to organic means, not some corporate officer of Monsanto.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #120 on: September 17, 2011, 09:34:39 PM »


ag?




Tiervexx:

i don't have the time to unwind all the assumptions and mis-beliefs you have

i note that Cee provided several example above, where gene mods and the industries legal maneuvers were limiting bio-diversity.

that you didn't understand is one reason, it not worth more of my words
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #121 on: September 18, 2011, 12:48:29 PM »

actually Homo Neanderthalis  clung to the edges of the glaciation during the ice age and possibly was a case of a specialist hominid that really could not cope with the milder conditions that Sapiens sapiens preferred.... as for the rest of this conversation....... we should not be afraid of genetic modification but embrace the technology, but regulate it properly....our biggest problem is definitely overpopulation, which in most species is self regulating ( as soon as the environment cannot sustain the population, the population dies off.....something we have managed to work around to both our benefit and our detriment) and i DO think we need to seriously start cutting back on childbirth in the west as we are the ones that can keep breeding without direct consequence to our wellbeing....the famines in africa etc are also a direct result of human interference......mainly the introduction of western european farming and culture into societies ill suited to them....
there is no easy answer and from a compassionate level one cannot simply say good we need fewer people.....but the truth is that we DO need to severely curtail our population growth.....and no I cannot think of one person or government morally capable of choosing who gets to breed/live/etc
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #122 on: September 18, 2011, 12:50:50 PM »

in the meantime...this is very cool indeed and it's about time we stopped seeing dinos naked in all our documentaries and films....
http://www.theatlantic.com/life/archive/2011/09/dinosaur-feathers-found-in-amber-reinforce-evolution-theories/245094/#slide1

I personally believe that T-Rex was also a feathered Dino....those little but powerful fore-arms would have been great balance rudders with feathers attatched
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #123 on: September 18, 2011, 01:09:25 PM »

...our biggest problem is definitely overpopulation, which in most species is self regulating ( as soon as the environment cannot sustain the population, the population dies off.....something we have managed to work around to both our benefit and our detriment) and i DO think we need to seriously start cutting back on childbirth in the west as we are the ones that can keep breeding without direct consequence to our wellbeing....the famines in africa etc are also a direct result of human interference......mainly the introduction of western european farming and culture into societies ill suited to them....

part of western culture that has contributed to famines elsewhere,
is the introduction of vaccines and western medicine

compassionate in the short to medium run ...

hard questions



i agree that overpopulation is one of the largest problems we have caused and face

technology allows us to over use and deplete food resources,
e.g. fisheries,
without giving us a replacement

ditto, resources needed to grow food,
e.g. top soil, fresh water,

and the implicit bet/gamble is that there will be more technology
to allow us to replace the food gotten from these resources,
that will prevent massive human die-offs - the deaths of billions of humans

that is,
it seems likely there will be a point where human populations will again be "self-regulating"

there is no easy answer and from a compassionate level one cannot simply say good we need fewer people.....but the truth is that we DO need to severely curtail our population growth.....and no I cannot think of one person or government morally capable of choosing who gets to breed/live/etc

the communist china policy,
of one child per family
is at least fair,
and distributes the "pain"/choice across society

the problem that communist china is facing in a few decades
is caring for an elderly under-productive population that
is twice the size of the productive population

that is,
the generation of "1 child/family" children will have to care for
their parent's generation, which is twice as large.
one person's income caring for three people,
plus any grandchildren

economists widely believe that communist china
growth will slow/stagnate/go negative then
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #124 on: September 18, 2011, 07:22:15 PM »


Tiervexx:

i don't have the time to unwind all the assumptions and mis-beliefs you have

i note that Cee provided several example above, where gene mods and the industries legal maneuvers were limiting bio-diversity.

that you didn't understand is one reason, it not worth more of my words

That's funny, I had thought about saying the same to you but decided not to be that much of a prick.  You seem to have the understanding of science that comes with being very well read, but has little formal science education.

Cee provided examples of where mistakes were made, but does nothing to attack the technology itself or it's potential.  I agree that in the short run genetic engineering can cause problems but as it becomes easier to make custom strains it will just become more common to use custom crops and live stock for everything.

It is common for new technology to start out with limited options but then get more and more diverse as it is more widely available.  Think of the number of cars you could buy now vs the variety that was available when Ford first made Model-T's cost effective.  That is what I mean when I say genetic engineering will eventually result in much greater varieties.

Your posts have included a number of hints that your understanding is motivated more by ideology than real scientific understanding.  An example is talking about how science stemming from profit driven corporations must be bad.  Yes corporations can do bad things but that's not really what we are talking about.  That's just your biases and not at all scientific.

I think the real reason you are just asserting I'm wrong and saying I'm not worth the effort is because you are making unprovable claims.  I am too but at least I admit it.  Your's and Cee's examples of old and even current mistakes are not hard to understand, they just might not be relevant as the technology advances.

I will freely admit that there are problematic details right now but we still have every reason to believe that your doubt of biotech and trans-humanism will look as laughable to future generations as comments like this do to current ones:

"I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year." -- The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957

Believe it or not, I understand everything you and Cee have told me.  I can see why those sound like reasonable ideas right now.  Early computers looked ridiculous too.  But I am not trying to talk about right now.  That should be obvious.  Biotechnology and trans-humanism will be the future anyway.

Finally, I admit there is some disagreement about exactly how many people we can feed with organic means.  But there is still a lot of evidence behind my position:

http://www.slate.com/id/2287746/
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/features/online/1601/why-organic-food-cant-feed-world

Counter arguments that we can use organic food to feed everyone often involve major restructuring that will be very expensive.  Anyone with an econ or business background should be suspicious that, that could ever be as cost effective.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #125 on: September 18, 2011, 07:33:21 PM »


Tiervexx:

i don't have the time to unwind all the assumptions and mis-beliefs you have

i note that Cee provided several example above, where gene mods and the industries legal maneuvers were limiting bio-diversity.

that you didn't understand is one reason, it not worth more of my words

That's funny, I had thought about saying the same to you but decided not to be that much of a prick.  You seem to have the understanding of science that comes with being very well read, but has little formal science education.

there are a few others here who could correct your conclusion here,
but i might as well do so

my bachelor's degree is in
Ecology
from the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Cambridge, MA, USA
(in case you are not up to date on
world class universities of
science, engineering, and technology:
http://mit.edu/)

i have done several years of research in ecology,
and maintained professional ties there,
and read the literature

though most of my life has been spent as an activitst
and software designer



we could easily feed everyone on the planet an organic diet,
if we stop feeding animals plant food that could be feed to humans

meat raised from animals that grazed on land that could not be farmed,
could be available as a luxury



my compassion is based on science and an understanding of
how the world works

your beliefs (ideology?) seem to be a based on a common
fundamentalist
belief that technology will always make the future better,
that hasn't really judge the risks and possibilities based on how
the world works, and has worked in the past
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #126 on: September 18, 2011, 07:52:07 PM »

I knew you are educated but I still don't think you are using it to the fullest here.  I think you're smart but more motivated by fear of the unknown here.

I will take your crack at my belief in technology prevailing (in the long run) as a compliment.

If you comepare how we lived 20 years ago to now the comparison is mixed, but if you look 200 years ago it seems to support my blinding optimisum.

Can we at least agree to disagree on the grounds that we will just have to wait and see what happens?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #127 on: September 18, 2011, 07:58:58 PM »

Can't agree.  the fact that you make your argument this way is another reason ...

I've looked at some of the figures, and trust and know scientists who have done fuller studies, and analysis

btw, slate and csomo are not considered decent sources on science.  ; - }
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #128 on: September 19, 2011, 02:57:19 AM »


btw, slate and csomo are not considered decent sources on science.  ; - }


Just on this point:

Slate and Cosmo are on their own not considered good science sources, but both articles linked are sourcing articles from scientific journals.  While ideally if writing a scientific review paper or presenting at a conference, one would stay away from popular news/magazines and go to the original source, I think a format like a forum is a fine place to cite a popular summary of a scientific article.  In fact, it may make the conversation more accessible to a larger diversity of people who read a forum and may not have privileges to reach scientific journals.

Further, since those were the only cited articles in this entire conversation, they provide far more evidence than uncited opinions.

P.S.  Any debate where you have to link how awesome the college you went to decades ago is an automatic failure.

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #129 on: September 19, 2011, 01:59:00 PM »


btw, slate and csomo are not considered decent sources on science.  ; - }


Just on this point:

Slate and Cosmo are on their own not considered good science sources, but both articles linked are sourcing articles from scientific journals.  While ideally if writing a scientific review paper or presenting at a conference, one would stay away from popular news/magazines and go to the original source, I think a format like a forum is a fine place to cite a popular summary of a scientific article.  In fact, it may make the conversation more accessible to a larger diversity of people who read a forum and may not have privileges to reach scientific journals.

Further, since those were the only cited articles in this entire conversation, they provide far more evidence than uncited opinions.

P.S.  Any debate where you have to link how awesome the college you went to decades ago is an automatic failure.



Thank you!

I am willing to admit there is uncertainty and that my ideas on where biotech is going can't be proven so i' a little taken aback by len's certainty that he knows the future.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #130 on: September 19, 2011, 02:05:33 PM »

Tiervexx

having tried to widen the point of view of people who are limited the way you are, hundreds, if not thousands of time in the past, i've gotten some idea when i have some chance of success

you are sadly, more of a fossil than I am

best -len
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #131 on: September 19, 2011, 02:23:48 PM »

frankenstein syndrome is well documented....look at the outcry about stem cell research.....people tend to have a gut reaction to anything messing with biological principals...but actually we have built our entire civilisation on genetic modification..we just spent the past 10,000 years having to do it the slow way with selective breeding and domestication....
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #132 on: September 19, 2011, 02:33:19 PM »

frankenstein syndrome is well documented....look at the outcry about stem cell research.....people tend to have a gut reaction to anything messing with biological principals...but actually we have built our entire civilisation on genetic modification..we just spent the past 10,000 years having to do it the slow way with selective breeding and domestication....

that slowness was and is a virtue.  
it allows for mistakes to be small.  
and much easier to fix

the current 'speedup' does not have the same degree of safety built into it

when one of these drastic new gene tech improvements get deployed,
for greed,
and goes wrong,
it's much Much MUCH harder to fix.
if possible at all
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #133 on: September 19, 2011, 03:04:05 PM »

Major sperm bank no longer taking deposits from redheads:     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44579757/ns/health-pregnancy/#.TneRBOzaybw

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #134 on: September 19, 2011, 07:22:54 PM »

during the ice ages, the homo * species survived, mostly,
in the equatorial regions where they wasn't any ice.  
nothing of our complexity survived on top of the ice.  
some survived along the edges.

you have another example?



it matters where and how they survived?  my point is however it happened, it happened.  there was, in fact, survival.

there are plenty of examples of humans adapting and living in conditions humans cant survive naked in.  sorry, i just do not subscribe to the self destructive theories; granted i've never seen a global climate shift, but i still don't believe someone couldn't start immediately tunneling.  just about every civilization existing right now is built on the ashes of the one that sat there before it.  i'd rather try to kill off fleas than human beings; we are a rash of survivors.

incidentally, losing interests in the past and in where humanity and technology have come from is more important than you might think.  knowing that our collective i.q. hasn't raised one point in the span of humanity should tell one that there are some things about human nature that simply cannot be changed.  it might can be bred out of us, but so long as ANY human is alive, at this point in time, there will exist an id.  and, without an id, we as a species will cease to move forward with the passion for it we have now.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #135 on: September 19, 2011, 07:33:28 PM »

Co-signs.

I believe we will adapt. Suffer? Sure... but also adapt.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #136 on: September 19, 2011, 10:17:10 PM »

Further, since those were the only cited articles in this entire conversation, they provide far more evidence than uncited opinions.

Actually, if one looks carefully:
True, there are numerous promising "gene therapies", but they don't actually treat genetic
disorders - rather they treat other sorts of disease, cancer for example.... and for the most
part, while some results are promising, they haven't actually cured anything yet.

As for gen-mod food crops, they have been developed for resistance to specific pests and
diseases, but it turns out the enemies are counter-adapting, and there are indications that
those same modifications may make the crops harmful to us...

In short, once again, these people are tinkering with stuff they don't fully understand, and
until the potential consequences can at least be estimated, it's a bad idea.
...someone might have linked to The Wall Street Journal and the admittedly somewhat biased (but still a step up from Cosmo) Global Research

Jussayin'.... :dontknow:
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #137 on: September 19, 2011, 10:20:55 PM »

ag

there are possible scenarios that will wipe all chordates out.
in fact most everything more complicatred than a single cell

the likely ones will kill billions of us.

maybe our race is uneducable and can't develope enough self-control
to do better

perhaps such mega-death is what humans end up being about

you're right,
the survivial of some humans on a much changed planet
is the more probable result

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #138 on: September 19, 2011, 10:22:38 PM »

Further, since those were the only cited articles in this entire conversation, they provide far more evidence than uncited opinions.

Actually, if one looks carefully:
True, there are numerous promising "gene therapies", but they don't actually treat genetic
disorders - rather they treat other sorts of disease, cancer for example.... and for the most
part, while some results are promising, they haven't actually cured anything yet.

As for gen-mod food crops, they have been developed for resistance to specific pests and
diseases, but it turns out the enemies are counter-adapting, and there are indications that
those same modifications may make the crops harmful to us...

In short, once again, these people are tinkering with stuff they don't fully understand, and
until the potential consequences can at least be estimated, it's a bad idea.
...someone might have linked to The Wall Street Journal and the admittedly somewhat biased (but still a step up from Cosmo) Global Research

Jussayin'.... :dontknow:

and it's the fact that Tiervaxx et al, don't read this closely,
(ag, Cee, and others do read closely)
that make trying to have this kind of discussion even harder
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #139 on: September 19, 2011, 10:35:57 PM »

ag

there are possible scenarios that will wipe all chordates out.
in fact most everything more complicatred than a single cell

the likely ones will kill billions of us.

maybe our race is uneducable and can't develope enough self-control
to do better

perhaps such mega-death is what humans end up being about

you're right,
the survivial of some humans on a much changed planet
is the more probable result

Cee

this was certainly the most glaring of these

i saw a number of others

i hope you're right, and it helps to point it out
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #140 on: September 19, 2011, 10:41:43 PM »

Bruce Sterling writes well

imho, better than Neil,
though they are both world class

http://w2.eff.org/Misc/Publications/Bruce_Sterling/FSF_columns/fsf.15

it's a little bit of what you have to understand,
before you really understand the dangers of deploying new tech
as carelessly and greedily as it usually is
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #141 on: September 20, 2011, 06:01:04 PM »

Tiervexx

having tried to widen the point of view of people who are limited the way you are, hundreds, if not thousands of time in the past, i've gotten some idea when i have some chance of success

you are sadly, more of a fossil than I am

best -len

Oh, get over yourself!

I can atleast admit I don't know for sure that biotech will move forward in the way I want.  You're confidence that it can't possibly work is absurd.  Using examples of past mistakes to prove it will never work even as we become far more advanced is fundementally a fallacy.

You seem fond of historical examples so I invite you to look up quotes that now look like very bad predictions.  Bold statements about how limited technology is, is a common theme amoung them.  People who said computers were never going anywhere were often as well educated as you are but like you had no vision.

Nobody ever said there are no risks.  You arefighting a strawman when you reasure us it's dangerous because I know it is VERY dangerous.  But your belief that it is self evident that those mistakes prove I'm wrong abot what will be possible reflect your fear, not reason.

In any case, the value judgements between the risks and rewards are very subjective.  I accept that I could be wrong and would respect someone's decision to never modify themselves.  Your belief that you could know for sure what will happen or what someone should do with their body (if it became available) shows your own narrow mindedness and arrogance.  ...or maybe it's not that you are arrogant, maybe you are just letting your fear of "unnatural" flesh close your mind.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #142 on: September 20, 2011, 08:26:07 PM »

^ sigh

i just don't have the time to help you along.
too much to unravel
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #143 on: September 20, 2011, 09:16:58 PM »

I appear to have missed quite a big and interesting exchange of opinions...

Any thoughts on Hydroponics?

It has the hallmarks of a middle ground between biotech and organic growing. I don't know enough to say more than that.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #144 on: September 20, 2011, 11:34:25 PM »

Any thoughts on Hydroponics?
Hydroponic veggies have a lot going for them:
-available in any season
-grown in water, so no dirt/sand/grit to wash off
-typically grown in an insect-free environment, so no pesticides are needed...

Unfortunately, they also have the nasty tendency to be devoid of flavour, and for some
reason, they often have a strange physical texture, somewhat akin to foam rubber...
I assume the flavour deficit is caused by an absence of trace "contaminants" might be
absorbed from soil, but not nutrient-water...  I have no explanation for the texture issue.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #145 on: September 21, 2011, 01:23:02 AM »

Any thoughts on Hydroponics?

I haven't looked at this in detail,
though I did visit one hydroponic factory awhile back.

It looked to me to require more money, water, and energy than
traditionally grown food,
(the tour guide was evasive about these questions)
and mostly useful for certain small (aka niche) market segments,
where the added cost would be paid for.

With scale costs might come down ...
Whether that ever happens or not ...
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #146 on: September 21, 2011, 02:02:06 AM »

Call me Pollyanna, but I think urban, vertical farming is going to be an important part of our future.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #147 on: September 21, 2011, 09:55:37 AM »

Any thoughts on Hydroponics?

I haven't looked at this in detail,
though I did visit one hydroponic factory awhile back.

It looked to me to require more money, water, and energy than
traditionally grown food,
(the tour guide was evasive about these questions)
and mostly useful for certain small (aka niche) market segments,
where the added cost would be paid for.


With scale costs might come down ...
Whether that ever happens or not ...

I wouldn't call marijuana a niche market.

 :hippy2:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #148 on: September 21, 2011, 11:00:26 AM »

Any thoughts on Hydroponics?

I haven't looked at this in detail,
though I did visit one hydroponic factory awhile back.

It looked to me to require more money, water, and energy than
traditionally grown food,
(the tour guide was evasive about these questions)
and mostly useful for certain small (aka niche) market segments,
where the added cost would be paid for.


With scale costs might come down ...
Whether that ever happens or not ...

I wouldn't call marijuana a niche market.

 :hippy2:

; - }

it is one of those niche markets,
where artifically imposed scarcity
makes higher production costs
necessary and profitable
for producers

for some producers,
those costs include jail time



sad that Washington DC
doesn't end the war on drugs
and tax them

what a great way to close the deficit!
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #149 on: September 21, 2011, 11:12:44 AM »

Any thoughts on Hydroponics?

I haven't looked at this in detail,
though I did visit one hydroponic factory awhile back.

It looked to me to require more money, water, and energy than
traditionally grown food,
(the tour guide was evasive about these questions)
and mostly useful for certain small (aka niche) market segments,
where the added cost would be paid for.


With scale costs might come down ...
Whether that ever happens or not ...

I wouldn't call marijuana a niche market.

 :hippy2:

; - }

it is one of those niche markets,
where artifically imposed scarcity
makes higher production costs
necessary and profitable
for producers

for some producers,
those costs include jail time



sad that Washington DC
doesn't end the war on drugs
and tax them

what a great way to close the deficit!

Hey, we agree on something!

The true benifit to ending the war on drugs might be much larger than we can anticipate because those poverty stricken areas that are torn by drug wars might suddenly become great places for busineses to go.

As for our argument about biotech, is there any posible innovation that would make you more open to its potential usefulness?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #150 on: September 22, 2011, 02:42:30 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #151 on: September 22, 2011, 02:58:36 PM »

Faster than light particles discovered......

from a smartass commenter:  "Whatever.  No biggie." 
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #152 on: September 22, 2011, 02:59:56 PM »

I physics is correct then effectively they recorded the particles arriving before they were sent
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #153 on: September 22, 2011, 03:03:06 PM »



Cue Albert Einstein rolling over in his grave.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #154 on: September 22, 2011, 03:04:21 PM »

hah! actually the particles diod the boring thing and just arrived quicker than light takes to do the same journey
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #155 on: September 22, 2011, 03:10:58 PM »


It's interesting that these particles are neutrinos which, if I am not mistaken, are still being considered as a likely candidate as the, or a, particle that makes up dark matter.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #156 on: September 22, 2011, 03:14:32 PM »

indeed but their arch nemesis is washing up liquid.....yep...true that's what they use to catch them....someone should totally have a Neutrino based superpower in the marvel or Dc universes......much hilarity could be made
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #157 on: September 22, 2011, 03:21:04 PM »

theory doesn't prevent particles traveling faster than light

if just doesn't allow particles to travel at the speed of light
(which is a bit of a simplification, but close enough)
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #158 on: September 22, 2011, 03:35:49 PM »

ag

there are possible scenarios that will wipe all chordates out.
in fact most everything more complicatred than a single cell

the likely ones will kill billions of us.

maybe our race is uneducable and can't develope enough self-control
to do better

perhaps such mega-death is what humans end up being about

you're right,
the survivial of some humans on a much changed planet
is the more probable result



my point is that we don't, in spite of what many say, make enough of an impact on the earth to effect self-extermination.  humans aren't the same as other species, in that there are a number of climates, foods, conditions we can make use of to survive in.

i am always skeptical of doomsday theory, because it assumes we have the power to actually destroy the planet.  frankly, i am not sure why our efforts at getting off the planet aren't four times as important as they seem now.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #159 on: September 22, 2011, 03:46:43 PM »

^ i always thought this was likely if a nucear winter happened

but a super-germ either evolved, or man-made, could take us all out.
a few might survive, if there are really environments that are indefinitely
self-sustaining in total quarantine and isolation



i would love to see our species have sizable successful breeding populations off planet.
it's an ultimate insurance policy

beyond the costs in money and accidental death, there will be a lot of deaths
due to evolution: mis-carriages, still-borns, infant, children, ...

not clear to me if this will happen soon or at all.
not enough people want it,
and there is no money to be made in space
by having colonies of humans there
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #160 on: September 22, 2011, 03:51:49 PM »

there is plenty of money to be made in space.. the problem is that currently none of it would benefit any current government....everyone is looking too short term to invest in projects that will not see a return outside of their current office
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #161 on: September 22, 2011, 03:59:43 PM »

there is plenty of money to be made in space.. the problem is that currently none of it would benefit any current government....everyone is looking too short term to invest in projects that will not see a return outside of their current office

there is already plenty of money being made in space.
just by unmanned satellites

(apologies, if you read my last post above, before i added that qualification)

a space elevator would be a break-through app for space,
unlikely to be funded anytime soon
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #162 on: September 22, 2011, 04:08:47 PM »

if it's money they want all they have to do is build a mall in orbit.  i can think of eighteen types of revenue available from that alone.

revolution disney.  i'd buy a ticket.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #163 on: September 22, 2011, 04:26:23 PM »

if it's money they want all they have to do is build a mall in orbit.  i can think of eighteen types of revenue available from that alone.

revolution disney.  i'd buy a ticket.

$20,000,000?

$1,000,000?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #164 on: September 22, 2011, 04:59:38 PM »

if it's money they want all they have to do is build a mall in orbit.  i can think of eighteen types of revenue available from that alone.

revolution disney.  i'd buy a ticket.

$20,000,000?

$1,000,000?


if i had 20, i'd spend 1 to go into space, wouldn't you?  and if i could charge 20 for anything at all, i surely would.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #165 on: September 22, 2011, 07:06:45 PM »

theory doesn't prevent particles traveling faster than light

if just doesn't allow particles to travel at the speed of light
(which is a bit of a simplification, but close enough)

Correct.  There is a loophole that might let some particles travel faster than light:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #166 on: September 23, 2011, 02:36:07 PM »

and interstingly....they might not be travelling faster than light at all, simply taking shortcuts through reality...which I find much more interesting
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #167 on: September 23, 2011, 06:37:02 PM »

and interstingly....they might not be travelling faster than light at all, simply taking shortcuts through reality...which I find much more interesting

I agree!

Faster than light travel though bending space has been a favorite possibility of mine as well.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #168 on: October 05, 2011, 07:32:24 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #169 on: October 09, 2011, 01:17:38 AM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #170 on: October 13, 2011, 08:32:21 PM »

remember that Icelandic volcano with the unpronounceable name?

well, its big sis might be waking up:     http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/10/earthquake-swarm-keeps-icelands-katla-rocking/

:(

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #171 on: October 14, 2011, 05:17:03 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #172 on: October 23, 2011, 10:09:51 AM »

giant amoebas discovered:       http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44998895#.TqQd_HI1Ti4

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #173 on: October 25, 2011, 03:58:51 PM »

apparently, you could see the aurora borealis as far south as Mississippi last night. it was cloudy here, though...   :(

anyway, this is what it looked like over Wisconsin:




 :love10:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #174 on: October 29, 2011, 11:08:22 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #175 on: November 02, 2011, 11:44:59 AM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #176 on: November 09, 2011, 06:13:56 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #177 on: November 14, 2011, 06:27:38 PM »

spiders are douchebags, too:     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45289018/

 ^-^

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #178 on: November 15, 2011, 11:29:39 AM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #179 on: November 18, 2011, 11:41:51 AM »

and interstingly....they might not be travelling faster than light at all, simply taking shortcuts through reality...which I find much more interesting
http://io9.com/5860744/new-data-confirms-neutrinos-are-still-traveling-faster-than-light

I agree!

Faster than light travel though bending space has been a favorite possibility of mine as well.

whatever it is, it's still happening:    http://io9.com/5860744/new-data-confirms-neutrinos-are-still-traveling-faster-than-light

???

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #180 on: December 05, 2011, 07:31:16 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #181 on: December 06, 2011, 10:43:24 PM »

what makes a psychopath....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15386740

I noticed that the good doctor asserts that the condition is treatable but does not say how or to what effectiveness.  The research I had done on several occasions seemed to show that we don't have the technology to treat them with drugs or neurological treatments and sociopaths just laugh at therapy (or fake that it works to get you to go away).

I've spoken with sociopaths a few times before and read articles by them about why they don't view themselves as evil and I came away from them as convinced as ever that they all need to be locked up upon diagnosis until it can be cured.

It is sort of like talking to somebody born without old factory nerves about why they smell bad.  The fundamentally just can not fathom what the hell you mean when they smell bad because they have never smelled anything.  They might understand how to wash to fit in when it suits them but will never really care about it.  They can correctly point out that your belief that they smell bad is subjective and unscientific but subjective or not I feel very inclined to avoid them.

I know my statements might be twisted into thinking all mentally ill people need to be locked up but not so!  I don't think any are as directly related to cruelty as anti social personality disorder.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #183 on: December 20, 2011, 08:04:59 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #185 on: January 17, 2012, 01:26:39 PM »

http://io9.com/5876335/until-2009-the-human-clitoris-was-an-absolute-mystery?popular=true

 :glasses9:

I love the comment:
"a woman is like a tardis, all is bigger in the inside than the outside. that. is. so. cool. make sense if you think about it"

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #187 on: February 07, 2012, 01:02:46 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #188 on: February 07, 2012, 01:44:02 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #189 on: February 07, 2012, 04:11:25 PM »

today is the 2nd annual White House Science Fair:   http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/01/31/president-obama-host-white-house-science-fair

:) :)


Are there MythBusters in attendance?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #192 on: March 24, 2012, 11:06:40 PM »

here, let me stretch your brain a lil' bit thee:    http://io9.com/5890789/the-trouble-with-string-theory

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #193 on: March 25, 2012, 02:33:20 PM »

here, let me stretch your brain a lil' bit thee:    http://io9.com/5890789/the-trouble-with-string-theory

Awesome!

Quote
The first problem with this is of course that no one has seen any of these dimensions. They are merely predicted by the math. And by "predicted by the math" we mean "the equations of string theory didn't balance out so we added extra degrees of freedom until they did."

YES!  I thought the same thing.  That type of shenanigans is what they do in theology and the social sciences.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #194 on: March 25, 2012, 07:43:37 PM »

here, let me stretch your brain a lil' bit thee:    http://io9.com/5890789/the-trouble-with-string-theory

Awesome!

Quote
The first problem with this is of course that no one has seen any of these dimensions. They are merely predicted by the math. And by "predicted by the math" we mean "the equations of string theory didn't balance out so we added extra degrees of freedom until they did."

YES!  I thought the same thing.  That type of shenanigans is what they do in theology and the social sciences.
This has always been my problem with the oh-so-useful constant "i"....  So many things work
so well when you can use a number in your calculations that CAN NOT POSSIBLY EXIST....

Division by zero?  That's a big ol' no-no, but the square-root of a negative?  Why not?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #195 on: April 12, 2012, 06:51:51 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #196 on: April 13, 2012, 01:17:56 AM »

did Viking find life on Mars in 1976?   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47031923/ns/technology_and_science-science/#.T4dXtdmLfcs

The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one, he said......
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/tFfZFvvuXWc" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/tFfZFvvuXWc</a>

(The disco beat is bearable, and the narrator is Sir Richard Fucking Burton, thankyouverymuch...)




Oh wait....  if there's bacteria on Mars, then the Martians probably AREN'T devoid of any
microbial immunity, and they could invade any day, and there'd be NOTHING to stop them....


AAAAAHHHHHHHH!   :o
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #197 on: April 13, 2012, 02:54:52 PM »

^ love that album! the hippie older brother of my childhood best friend had it, and he'd let me borrow it from time to time.

it's sold some ungodly amount of copies over the years; I think it's north of 25 million worldwide.  :o

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #198 on: April 13, 2012, 08:15:47 PM »

here, let me stretch your brain a lil' bit thee:    http://io9.com/5890789/the-trouble-with-string-theory

Awesome!

Quote
The first problem with this is of course that no one has seen any of these dimensions. They are merely predicted by the math. And by "predicted by the math" we mean "the equations of string theory didn't balance out so we added extra degrees of freedom until they did."

YES!  I thought the same thing.  That type of shenanigans is what they do in theology and the social sciences.
This has always been my problem with the oh-so-useful constant "i"....  So many things work
so well when you can use a number in your calculations that CAN NOT POSSIBLY EXIST....

Division by zero?  That's a big ol' no-no, but the square-root of a negative?  Why not?

not a valid comparison at all.  "i" is understood to not be "real" by mathematicians.  It is used because it can represent things just as an "8" can be used to represent things.  You might gain some appreciation for "i" if you looked into it's geometric applications which is how it gained acceptance among mathematicians in the first place.  "i" is used to represent another dimension apart from the reals.  Fractal geometry is a good example of it's use.

So yes, I can't really give you 4i apples.  That would be absurd.  But I can represent an infinitely complex shape with a formula that uses "i".

Furthermore, mathematics is not at all dependent on any connection to a particular physical world.  If it is free from internal contradiction it is valid mathematics.  "i" has been shown to be logically consistent while dividing by zero leads to contradictions.

Math can apply to anything that is free from contradiction since that is the founding principle in mathematics.  "i" actually does apply to quantum particles.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #199 on: April 13, 2012, 10:34:41 PM »

Math can apply to anything that is free from contradiction since that is the founding principle in mathematics.  "i" actually does apply to quantum particles.
The square of ANY number is a positive number.

Therefore, the square root of a negative number IS a contradiction.

...You might gain some appreciation for "i" if you looked into it's geometric applications which is how it gained acceptance among mathematicians in the first place.  "i" is used to represent another dimension apart from the reals.  Fractal geometry is a good example of it's use.
My point exactly - it's terribly useful in terms of hypothetical reality, but it can not in any
way be applied to real reality.  Speculation about 'alternate dimensions' and such, based
upon calculations of that sort thus impress me not in the least.



Kinda like the classic demonstration that 1=2, wherein the mathematician surreptitiously divides
by zero by using two variables with the same value. [google google google]
Quote from: Ah, here it is...
1=2: A Proof using Beginning Algebra
The Fallacious Proof:

    Step 1: Let a=b.
    Step 2: Then a^2 = ab,
    Step 3: a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab,
    Step 4: 2 a^2 = a^2 + ab,
    Step 5: 2 a^2 - 2 ab = a^2 + ab - 2 ab,
    Step 6: and 2 a^2 - 2 ab = a^2 - ab.

    Step 7: This can be written as 2 (a^2 - a b) = 1 (a^2 - a b),
    Step 8: and cancelling the (a^2 - ab) from both sides gives 1=2.

If math is your thing, of course, don't let skeptical old me put you off.   O0
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #201 on: April 17, 2012, 03:19:53 PM »

is this not the non-linear universe i have mentioned before?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #202 on: April 21, 2012, 05:50:30 PM »

Math can apply to anything that is free from contradiction since that is the founding principle in mathematics.  "i" actually does apply to quantum particles.
The square of ANY number is a positive number.

Therefore, the square root of a negative number IS a contradiction.

...You might gain some appreciation for "i" if you looked into it's geometric applications which is how it gained acceptance among mathematicians in the first place.  "i" is used to represent another dimension apart from the reals.  Fractal geometry is a good example of it's use.
My point exactly - it's terribly useful in terms of hypothetical reality, but it can not in any
way be applied to real reality.  Speculation about 'alternate dimensions' and such, based
upon calculations of that sort thus impress me not in the least.



Kinda like the classic demonstration that 1=2, wherein the mathematician surreptitiously divides
by zero by using two variables with the same value. [google google google]
Quote from: Ah, here it is...
1=2: A Proof using Beginning Algebra
The Fallacious Proof:

    Step 1: Let a=b.
    Step 2: Then a^2 = ab,
    Step 3: a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab,
    Step 4: 2 a^2 = a^2 + ab,
    Step 5: 2 a^2 - 2 ab = a^2 + ab - 2 ab,
    Step 6: and 2 a^2 - 2 ab = a^2 - ab.

    Step 7: This can be written as 2 (a^2 - a b) = 1 (a^2 - a b),
    Step 8: and cancelling the (a^2 - ab) from both sides gives 1=2.

If math is your thing, of course, don't let skeptical old me put you off.   O0

You have a problem because "i" IS in this reality.  It describes energy states of quantum particles and is used in fractal geometry which is found throughout nature.  Much of real engineering would not exist without it.

As I said, mathematics does not need to be tied to a physical science to be valid but it just so happens that "i" is well established all over applied mathematics and not just pure.  The String Theory I was criticizing was never (and probably will never be) verified by experiment but results with "i" are used in the microchips we are using to have this discussion.

It might help your understanding if "i" to stop using the word "number".  When people think of number they think of something that can be used to describe a quantity.  When mathematicians say that "i" is outside the number line they are effectively saying that it is not a "number" in that sense.  Maybe think of it as a geometric object.  With many of it's applications that might be a better description than "number".

Also, the use of "i" instead of root(-1) was started by Gauss in acknowledgement that of course that made no sense.  A "7" is not real in itself.  It is a totally abstract object.  It only has meaning when you say something like "I ate seven donkeys."  Likewise, "i" is no more or less abstract in itself, it just has different uses but still has it's uses.  I can describe amplitudes of electrons with "i" in a way that can't be done with the reals so from that perspective the reals don't exist!
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #204 on: April 30, 2012, 11:25:04 AM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #205 on: June 11, 2012, 10:36:12 AM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/egEGaBXG3Kg" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/egEGaBXG3Kg</a>


 :o

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #206 on: June 12, 2012, 07:33:34 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #207 on: July 04, 2012, 12:41:50 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #208 on: August 26, 2012, 07:26:04 PM »

Higgs boson found:    http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2012/PR17.12E.html


 :D :occasion14: :occasion16: :occasion14: :D

I remember first hearing about that and immediately seeing all the stupid comments asking what good it did them?  Freaking morons...
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #209 on: August 28, 2012, 12:48:13 AM »

Curiosity sends a postcard:



 :glasses9:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #210 on: August 28, 2012, 02:46:28 AM »

Curiosity sends a postcard:



 :glasses9:

I'm such a loser. Almost every picture I see from Curiosity makes me want to cry xD
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #211 on: August 28, 2012, 03:16:36 AM »

^ I know what you mean. I'm getting major science boners over here.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #212 on: August 28, 2012, 03:42:56 AM »

^ I know what you mean. I'm getting major science boners over here.

Did you see the one where you could see earth as a big sort of star? I think Froggy had it on her FB. It was fucking amaaazing.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #213 on: August 28, 2012, 03:52:11 AM »

^ I know what you mean. I'm getting major science boners over here.

Did you see the one where you could see earth as a big sort of star? I think Froggy had it on her FB. It was fucking amaaazing.

I don't know if I have. I saw the one comparing it to Star Wars? And the video of the landing curiosity took was amazing.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #214 on: August 28, 2012, 04:01:36 AM »

^ I know what you mean. I'm getting major science boners over here.

Did you see the one where you could see earth as a big sort of star? I think Froggy had it on her FB. It was fucking amaaazing.

I don't know if I have. I saw the one comparing it to Star Wars? And the video of the landing curiosity took was amazing.

Vwollar.




I actually *did* get weepy at the video xD
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #215 on: August 28, 2012, 04:19:39 AM »

Oh yeah, I did see that one.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #216 on: August 28, 2012, 10:43:16 AM »

Curiosity has its own Twitter feed:   https://twitter.com/MarsCuriosity

it's pretty funny.  :)

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #217 on: August 28, 2012, 02:15:11 PM »

Curiosity has its own Twitter feed:   https://twitter.com/MarsCuriosity

it's pretty funny.  :)

Aww, it reminds me of Wall-e  :love5:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #220 on: September 06, 2012, 05:51:00 PM »

Curiosity's tracking up the place:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #221 on: September 09, 2012, 08:09:50 PM »

Curiosity sends a self portrait:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #222 on: September 09, 2012, 08:14:47 PM »

He's so cute :love5:
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #223 on: September 09, 2012, 08:18:02 PM »

at least it's not a duckface pic. 

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #224 on: September 10, 2012, 05:33:00 AM »

at least it's not a duckface pic.

How do you know? Maybe that's what robot duckface looks like.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #225 on: September 10, 2012, 10:41:07 AM »

at least it's not a duckface pic.

How do you know? Maybe that's what robot duckface looks like.

Curiosity kinda already did a duckface pic about 3 weeks ago. C sent back a pic of it staring up into its camera, which it had as high up as its boom arm would go.

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #226 on: September 10, 2012, 05:50:29 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #229 on: September 13, 2012, 02:21:52 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Esj5juUzhpU&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Esj5juUzhpU&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>


 :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #233 on: September 30, 2012, 12:55:28 AM »

http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/27/14127587-new-virus-in-africa-looks-like-rabies-acts-like-ebola?lite

 :icon_shaking:
This didn't happen to 'spontaneously appear' right near to a western bio-research lab, one
that mysteriously burned down, destroying ALL records of the work being done there, did it?
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #234 on: October 16, 2012, 10:40:51 AM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/i1TVZIBj7UA&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/i1TVZIBj7UA&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>


 :glasses9:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #237 on: October 18, 2012, 01:08:46 AM »

http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/27/14127587-new-virus-in-africa-looks-like-rabies-acts-like-ebola?lite

 :icon_shaking:

It's called Rabola!
I wonder whose bio-weapons lab cooked that up?  (I mean, the one where they
claim not to have invented AIDS burned down, so they couldn't have...)
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #238 on: October 23, 2012, 12:44:07 AM »

Saudi Arabia going clean-energy?   http://ecowatch.org/2012/saudi-arabia-renewables/

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #239 on: October 23, 2012, 04:20:05 PM »

Saudi Arabia going clean-energy?   http://ecowatch.org/2012/saudi-arabia-renewables/

Wow that is certainly unexpected! Though they do have the sunlight for it.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #241 on: November 01, 2012, 05:10:01 PM »

another Curiosity "self portrait", this one stitched together from lots of thumbnail pics:



...it's like a 14-year-old girl or something.

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #242 on: November 01, 2012, 05:20:45 PM »

wow I guess I didn't realize it was so big that is crazy cool
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #243 on: November 01, 2012, 06:01:07 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #244 on: November 01, 2012, 10:44:52 PM »

another Curiosity "self portrait", this one stitched together from lots of thumbnail pics:



...it's like a 14-year-old girl or something.
I would like to send a dollar to the FIRST person who thought to photoshop
an AT-AT into the background of one of these photos....
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #245 on: November 07, 2012, 04:32:50 PM »

AT-ATs don't belong in the sand. That picture needs Jawas and a sandcrawler.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #246 on: November 07, 2012, 11:04:24 PM »

AT-ATs don't belong in the sand. That picture needs Jawas and a sandcrawler.
ALL-TERRAIN armored transport....   O0

Those huge feet are fine for sand.


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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #247 on: November 08, 2012, 01:48:45 PM »

we might be...going back to the moon!!!!!!!    http://io9.com/5958867/is-nasa-about-to-unveil-plans-for-manned-moon-mission


 :headbang: :headbang: x 2.4 million!

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #248 on: November 08, 2012, 04:39:06 PM »

we might be...going back to the moon!!!!!!!    http://io9.com/5958867/is-nasa-about-to-unveil-plans-for-manned-moon-mission


 :headbang: :headbang: x 2.4 million!

 :o
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/uX2cS8wvQHI" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/uX2cS8wvQHI</a>
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #249 on: November 13, 2012, 10:11:07 AM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #250 on: November 13, 2012, 06:57:40 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #251 on: November 14, 2012, 12:01:07 AM »

this may or may not make you feel good:   http://io9.com/5960071/man-in-coma-uses-his-thoughts-to-tell-doctors-im-not-in-pain
Oh hey, good news!  Your dad?  The one who's been in a coma since the car-crash
ten years ago? He's actually been wide awake this whole time, and just unable to
speak, or gesture, or move or pretty much do anything but lie there...
   :-\
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #252 on: November 21, 2012, 10:30:55 AM »

Curiosity says she's found something, but won't tell us what it was:   http://io9.com/5962240/scientists-claim-to-have-discovered-something-earthshaking-on-mars

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #253 on: November 26, 2012, 07:38:37 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #254 on: November 29, 2012, 09:40:03 AM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/bIy6w_iubSs" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/bIy6w_iubSs</a>

 :D :love5: :love5: :love5: :love5: :love5: :love5: :D

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #256 on: December 17, 2012, 05:47:26 PM »

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #257 on: January 03, 2013, 03:46:52 PM »

hairy tumor growing on eyeball:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #258 on: January 03, 2013, 03:48:35 PM »

Ugh. I was eating when I saw that. I need to stop eating lunch when I check the shadowbox.
How does that even happen? Eyeballs don't have hair follicles (or at least, I didn't think they did).
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #259 on: January 03, 2013, 04:01:16 PM »

Tumors are just plain wacky. They'll have hair masses in them, calcifications (that look like they might be teeth), and spongy masses.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #260 on: January 03, 2013, 04:13:46 PM »

That's kind of crazy.
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #261 on: January 04, 2013, 08:34:14 PM »

Ugh. I was eating when I saw that. I need to stop eating lunch when I check the shadowbox.
How does that even happen? Eyeballs don't have hair follicles (or at least, I didn't think they did).


Uhhh I was so eating as well
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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #263 on: January 18, 2013, 06:18:51 PM »

Curiosity (well, her stand-in, anyway) and some of her earthbound team members will take part in the inauguration parade:   http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2013-026

 :glasses9:

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #266 on: February 10, 2013, 02:04:27 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/XTvajOQ_xak" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/XTvajOQ_xak</a>

 :D

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #267 on: February 10, 2013, 06:20:37 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/XTvajOQ_xak" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/XTvajOQ_xak</a>

 :D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D




(...and the parodies-better-than-the-original score keeps growing....)
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Is it bad that what she said made perfect sense to me?

Savannah

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #268 on: February 10, 2013, 06:47:16 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/XTvajOQ_xak" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/XTvajOQ_xak</a>

 :D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D




(...and the parodies-better-than-the-original score keeps growing....)

 ;D this is so rad.
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Quote from: Amanda Palmer
I mean, we're losers with bandwidth. #LOFNOTC

facebook is like the worst book I've ever read. the characters do not evolve one bit and the plot is going nowhere.

imaginary friend

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imaginary friend

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #270 on: February 12, 2013, 07:25:02 PM »



...looks like C's been flashing drunk Martians.

imaginary friend

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #271 on: February 26, 2013, 11:08:18 AM »

N.U.

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Re: from the Science Desk
« Reply #272 on: February 27, 2013, 05:42:26 PM »

That poor comet. Why the heck is Mars getting in it's way?

It's all relative.  >:D
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imaginary friend

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First Documented Case of Child Cured of HIV
« Reply #274 on: March 04, 2013, 12:54:22 PM »

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130303172640.htm  --- First Documented Case of Child Cured of HIV

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I assembled this team for purposes of a League of Extraordinary Gentlemen thing, but in reading this thread it occurs to me they're all highly bangable. Yeah, even Spider Jerusalem.

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