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Author Topic: Quantum Relativity  (Read 8133 times)

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Kovacs

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2008, 08:33:29 PM »

Hmmmh, I think I understand a bit more of what you say. But I do not know enough about probability to have a very clear opinion for now. However, I find it to be an intriguing topic

And that tiny bit of encouragement is all I need to rant off nerd speak for a half hour. Enjoy, ignore, etc etc!

How to view the world as probability only!

First off, a disclaimer: I don't necessarily believe this is all the way things are, nor do I believe the universe works like this (though I do believe it's possible). It's only of the theories I entertain because using math to get a different view entertains me. But I'm not like a religious fundamentaist with a protracter or something. I also left out all the "in my opinion" and other courtesies because it gets tedious to type them over and over. I assure you I'm not trying to preach or say that this is absolutely true.  :)

Definitions!

Equation: I'll be using this word, but it doesn't necessarily mean something as simple as x + y = z. Suffice to say I'm not even sure the math exists yet to quantify the types of equations I'm talking about. Think of equation as just a way of explaining and predicting results, don't dwell on what the math might look like.

Probability: The chance something can happen.

Probability function: An equation that calculates the chances that various things can happen. Given a certain input, you end up with "what happens".

Collapse: When an equation is said to "collapse", that means it settles on a particular solution. Like you have x+3 = y...once you know x is 2, the equation collapses to a point, where y is 5.



Okay. So first off, why probability? Well, the one thing they've determined is that if you take a particle, you cannot predict where it will go or what it will do. What you can do is construct a probability function that tells you the chances of where it's going, and the most likely places it will go.

So the building blocks of the universe, at least for the time being, seem to be "random". Or at least only quantifiable by these probability functions instead of classical physics equations (you hit particle, it heads off in a certain direction with a certain velocity).

So picture you're looking at a particle. You want to know what it will do. You can make a function for that particle and at least be reasonably sure.

Zoom out. Look at an atom instead of a particle (and this is where everything gets shaky and not-so-believeable). Since it's composed of these things that only function by probability, it makes sense that the atom "should" function this way as well.

Zoom out. You have a protein. Same deal, it's still composed of components that deny classical physics.

Zoom waaaaaay out. All matter you see is composed of these little pieces, that we can't fully predict what they're going to do. You could (if given like a bajillion supercomputers and a lot of time) compose probability functions for matter. Yes, the probability functions would have an infinite number of possibilities, but thats no big deal for math, you can just have an infinite number of solutions and you're straight.

Now. Take a cognitive step back, and realize that you are not forming equations to explain things, you are viewing the fabric of the universe. The equations are already there. They are everything. Nothing else matters, or is outside of them. They explain and encompass anything that can and will happen.

This leads to the thinking of consciousness as just a probability interpreter. Watching these probability functions collapsing all around you. You see the wind blowing through the trees, you're seeing all the vast equations governing the probability of each individual particle to go this way or that, and watching them resolve themselves as they pick a track.

I like this explanation because it makes the universe an unpredicatable place (or very predictable I suppose you could argue, if you knew all the starting conditions for what you were trying to figure out...this led one particularly crazy scientist guy to say that whoever know the position and initial velocity of every particle at the big bang would be able to predict the entire outcome of the universe...i.e. God). There are rules (which are easily incorporated into a probability function), but only to a point. Here there be dragons and what not.

So, have the probabilities already been resolved? The starting factors leading to an inevitable conclusion (fate)? Or are we constantly changing the rules just by the act of being here. More than a probability interpreter, we're active. We manipulate the equations. We're probabilty creators. I just demonstrated this by reaching over and eating a post it on my desk. Did all the quantum probabilities set in motion since the beginning of the universe cause me to do that, or did I collapse the wave myself?

Etc. Etc, things get shaky at this point, and you can go off in plenty of directions. Ptew, by the way.

Oh, all this is also completely, utterly, and totally impractical. But fun!  :)
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Johnny

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2008, 11:09:40 PM »

wtf? ~annoyed~ the witch comment was sarcasm, but i can see how it could be debated that way, Devery. from a religious point of view. but i could consider myself a witch in some ways, if you really want me to put it out there, and i have no clue what you're talking about, Devery.

please crowd, i was not serious. do not put me on Devery's side of the argument. i happen to enjoy Physics! ...well. then again, it would be interesting to argue her side. maybe i will discuss BOTH points. this is going to get messy.



i was definitely being sarcastic, Radar. i get you. but being in class, i will put in my opinions later.

wtf?  ~very perplexed~  I thought it was abundantly clear that I was simply joining in your sarcasm.  It took me by surprise that Radar took your post seriously.  I simply extended your post, in light of his response to this and my previous post, where I said "huh?  certainly he knows we aren't seriously espousing a non-scientific, superstitious (i.e. fundamentalistic religious) view" and so I decided to have a little fun with it.  I wasn't dissing you in the least, Caddy.  You, of all people, should know that I have argued in favor of atheism in prior threads, have recommended certain books and authors on the subject, and am now surprised that two people have now taken what I thought were clearly sarcastic posts as serious ones. 


I was reading through these posts and when I read yours I was like....".......what...the...shit?!?!!"

haha


i'm so glad you were being sarcastic
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Schplynthia

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2008, 08:43:14 PM »

I hope I'm not making an annoying ignorant noob of myself here, but this reminds me of an experiment that many of you probably know about discussed in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

If you'd rather read than watch, here's the gist, but I'm sure the video explains it better than I could: they got a sheet of metal with two parallel slits in it.  When they fired particles, they predictably made a pattern identical to the two slits.  When they fired waves, they created an interference pattern, a pretty little curve between the two slits.  When they fired electrons, however (i.e. matter), they saw the same interference pattern as a wave.  The crazy part is that when they monitered the stream of electrons, they actually found a different result.  The stream of electrons created a pattern identical to the two slits, just like the plain old particles.

Thus, as for the question about an arrow in flight, it is quite possible that it is, indeed, following many paths at once, but the very act of observation actually changes the reality, forcing it to conform to just one path.  So, I guess consciousness is what determines reality.  Or maybe this is just because of the limits of today's technology, and eventually we will create some kind of monitering device that doesn't change reality, and maybe we will eventually evolve the capability to perceive every single physical possibility at the same time.  Then, of course, we probably wouldn't be able to participate in reality because we'd be so busy watching all the crazy shit going on, and we'd turn into amorphous blobs of consciousness.  I'm not sure if this would be a good thing or not.
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85283-071

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2008, 11:42:16 PM »

We may have evolved filters to make our perception of reality more efficient and practical.
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Schplynthia

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2008, 04:05:14 AM »

But that's so much less fun!
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CeeGBee

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2008, 12:02:47 PM »

I hope I'm not making an annoying ignorant noob of myself here, but this reminds me of an experiment that many of you probably know about discussed in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
Kovacs mentioned it, but failed to post video.  Therefore, YOU WIN!!!   :headbang:
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Schplynthia

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2008, 04:31:12 PM »

YAY!!!   :icon_queen:
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85283-071

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2008, 08:09:34 PM »

But that's so much less fun!

Lament not! There are ways to disable those filters.
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The Angel Raliel

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2008, 04:39:32 AM »

I like the idea that all posible moments in time and space exist simultaneously, and we only percieve a narrow thread of this.  I think of reality as being like an infinite ocean, all things interconnected and fluid while utterly unchanging..... while constantly in flux, time, matter, enrgy and space are like currents in the ocean but are completely a part of it and unseparatable from the whole
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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2008, 12:35:40 PM »

I experience time as a by-product of the union of consciousness and matter.
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Kovacs

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2008, 01:02:35 PM »

I hope I'm not making an annoying ignorant noob of myself here, but this reminds me of an experiment that many of you probably know about discussed in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
Kovacs mentioned it, but failed to post video.  Therefore, YOU WIN!!!   :headbang:


!

Then I'm going with the multi-verse theory. That way I just won elsewhere, and feel better.  :buck2:

That sounds like a cool video, I'll have to check it out when I'm outside of this accursed firewall.
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CeeGBee

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2008, 01:21:07 PM »

It is a pretty cool video, and useful for visual learners.

I like infinite universes theory. 
According to the Gospel of St. Matthew:
With [or "in"] God, all things are possible.... 
Note the distinction between "all things" and "anything"...
I've always felt like this passage deserved closer examination.


Oh, and congrats on finding that video in the alternate universe.
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Schplynthia

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2008, 04:04:59 PM »

I can't take all the credit, my psychology teacher showed it to me.

I think of reality as being like an infinite ocean, all things interconnected and fluid while utterly unchanging..... while constantly in flux, time, matter, enrgy and space are like currents in the ocean but are completely a part of it and unseparatable from the whole

This is beautiful.  I've been looking for a way to explain this idea of constant change (and therefore ever-changing sameness), and you have hit on it.  Thank you.
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yosmark

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2008, 08:10:05 PM »

Nice vid, is the Haisnberg principle; a good video indeed i will watch more Dr Quantum videos later.
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Paul

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Re: Quantum Relativity
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2008, 12:08:06 PM »

I like the idea that all posible moments in time and space exist simultaneously, and we only percieve a narrow thread of this.  I think of reality as being like an infinite ocean, all things interconnected and fluid while utterly unchanging..... while constantly in flux, time, matter, enrgy and space are like currents in the ocean but are completely a part of it and unseparatable from the whole

While there are some processes that can be said to be symmetric whether going forward or back in time, the general direction of time is in one direction. Stars emit light, things fall from "up" to "down" and not the inverse, broken mirrors don't spontaneously repair themselves etc... While things the past will have shaped the present, it is impossible that the universe can ever return to the exact state it was, say ten minutes ago.  Also, it is impossible that something that takes place in this "end" of the universe can instantaneously affect something at the end (due to the speed of light restriction), which is what the idea of an interconnected and unchanging reality seems to be suggesting.
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