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Author Topic: OBAMA gets the NOM.  (Read 11729 times)

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doritojoe89

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OBAMA gets the NOM.
« on: June 03, 2008, 10:59:25 PM »

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/03/election.democrats/index.html


 WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In what he called a "defining moment for our nation," Sen. Barack Obama on Tuesday became the first African-American to head the ticket of a major political party.
art.obama.ap.jpg

Obama's steady stream of superdelegate endorsements, combined with the delegates he received from Tuesday's primaries, put him past the 2,118 threshold, CNN projects.

"Tonight we mark the end of one historic journey with the beginning of another -- a journey that will bring a new and better day to America," he said.

"Tonight, I can stand before you and say that I will be the Democratic nominee for president of the United States."

Obama's rally was at the Xcel Energy Center in St. Paul, Minnesota -- the same arena which will house the 2008 Republican National Convention in September.

Speaking in New York, Sen. Hillary Clinton, congratulated Obama for his campaign, but she did not concede the race nor discuss the possibility of running as vice president.

There were reports earlier in the day that she would concede, but her campaign said she was "absolutely not" prepared to do so.

"This has been a long campaign, and I will be making no decisions tonight," she said. Video Watch Clinton congratulate Obama »

Clinton said she would meet with supporters and party leaders in the coming days to determine her next steps.

She also asked people to go to her Web site to "share your thoughts with me and help in any way that you can."

CNN has projected that Clinton will win the primary in South Dakota and Obama will take Montana.

Those states marked the final contests in the primary season.

Obama praised Clinton's campaign. He has been speaking favorably of the New York senator as his focus has turned toward the general election and his battle against John McCain, the presumptive GOP presidential nominee.

"Senator Hillary Clinton has made history in this campaign not just because she's a woman who has done what no woman has done before, but because she's a leader who inspires millions of Americans with her strength, her courage, and her commitment to the causes that brought us here tonight," he said.


Two New York lawmakers told CNN on Tuesday that Clinton expressed willingness during a conference call to serve as Obama's running mate in November. Video Watch the latest on a possible joint ticket »

One of the lawmakers said Clinton's husband, former President Bill Clinton, has been pushing the idea privately for several weeks. But in a statement issued Tuesday afternoon, her campaign said there was nothing new in her remarks.

"Today on a conference call with New York legislators, Sen. Clinton was asked whether she was open to the idea of running as vice president and repeated what she has said before: She would do whatever she could to ensure that Democrats take the White House back and defeat John McCain," the former first lady's campaign said in a written statement Tuesday afternoon. Video Watch what could be in store in Clinton's future »
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Former President Jimmy Carter and Rep. James Clyburn, the No. 3 Democrat in the House and the highest ranking African-American in Congress, were two of the most prominent superdelegate endorsements that Obama picked up. Video Watch Clyburn endorse Obama »

"I came to that decision because I do believe that he has elevated this campaign," Clyburn said. "He has energized our constituents. He is redrawing an electoral map for Democrats."
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YESSSSSSSSSSSSS  thank god!!       i'm so happy!  i'm ready to throw all of my support behind him!!
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2008, 11:02:41 PM »

My dad teased my sister about this. I was behind him (although not a voting citizen yet :P). I'm waiting to see if Hillary is offered the position of VP or similiar lines.

NOM Anor is the name of a fanatic alien spy from Star Wars. In the novels and comics I mean.
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Musings

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2008, 11:06:37 PM »

That was an awesome speech he gave, once again.

Hit all the right notes, and managed to be gracious to Clinton.

Now, let the real race begin!
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Kovacs

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2008, 11:23:53 PM »

I've never been this inspired politically.

With that, comes a very real (and probably paranoid) concern for his safety.
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Katherine May Williams

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2008, 12:21:36 AM »

Good for him. Hope he wins the election (and doesn't get all sleazed up or shot or nuthin.)

Is Hilary going to be his best man? (sorry.. "vice president"?)
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2008, 12:36:21 PM »

I doubt it after all the shit she's pulled.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2008, 01:47:43 PM »

damn it.

Mali

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2008, 03:12:52 PM »

I called it!  :coolsmiley:
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2008, 04:19:55 PM »

I totally won $50 due to this.  Rawk.
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Mali

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2008, 05:48:12 PM »

I didn't put money on it.
Gosh damn.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2008, 06:39:12 PM »

yayayayayayayay.

Obama is the NOM NOM NOM.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2008, 07:29:59 PM »

I totally won $50 due to this.  Rawk.

I lost $100, and learned not to make tongue-in-cheek bets.

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2008, 08:42:06 AM »

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doritojoe89

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2008, 12:05:37 PM »

^ is he eating fish skins?
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2008, 02:17:31 PM »

WOOOOHOOOOOOOOO!!!

He'd be a motherfucking idiot to offer Clinton the VP slot.  Fo' shizz.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2008, 03:31:46 PM »

Obama / Clinton would be a strong Democratic ticket, but I can only imagine the clash
of personalities.  Better for all concerned if either she says preemptively that she isn't
interested in the #2 spot, or better yet, if he offers and she declines (politely, of course).
That way, she gets payback ("Beat me in the primary?  Well I won't run with you.  So
there!"
) and her supporters can still get in line with the party's candidate, without the
otherwise-inevitable continuation of the complaints that she's been somehow mistreated.

Besides, with Ted Kennedy likely to retire soon (have I said this before?), the Far Left
needs a new figurehead in the Senate, and the GOP needs a new focus for their propaganda,
and in Hillary, they've got an experienced scape... uh, donkey? to fill both
roles.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2008, 04:24:20 PM »

yes, but hill would make the dream ticket for boomers and their kids to rally around together. the two names have been joined in the media for the past 16 months. it would show party unity. double dipping donors. yadda, yadda, yadda. 

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2008, 05:01:13 PM »

I like Carter's comment about the only thing a joint ticket would do is open the campaign to criticism on both their negative points.

There are people that absolutely despise Hilary, to the point of not being able to vote for her. Make her Secretary of State, she fully endorses Obama and campaigns for him through November, her supporters start to remember actual political issues instead of whatever it is they're thinking of currently, win, count it, and one.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2008, 06:30:05 PM »

I would, quite seriously, I kid you not, shit my fucking pants if she's the vee pee.

FO' SHIZZ, MUTHA FUCKA.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2008, 06:33:37 PM »

yes, but hill would make the dream ticket for boomers and their kids to rally around together. the two names have been joined in the media for the past 16 months. it would show party unity. double dipping donors. yadda, yadda, yadda. 

They'd be a fundraising machine beyond all imagination...but Hillary on the Dem ticket would unite the Republicans far better tham McCain's been able to do. Best to get someone else for the VP spot.

jdfu!

$ethie

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2008, 02:32:06 AM »

I would, quite seriously, I kid you not, shit my fucking pants if she's the vee pee.

FO' SHIZZ, MUTHA FUCKA.

He'd be an idiot not to offer her the spot. My personal feelings about Hillary aside, neither Obama nor Hillary have the power to take on McCain alone. I was hoping for Hillary to win the primary, with Obama as the VP, but that didn't come about. If Obama doesn't offer Hillary the spot, there will be a fuckton of pissed off Hillary supporters who will either stay home or vote for McCain, costing Obama essential votes. There's no way he can win without her support, just as she couldn't have won without his support.

Personally, I'm one of those pissed off Hillary supporters. If she's not selected as his VP, I'll be writing her in, just as I suspect many others will be doing.
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Kovacs

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2008, 04:16:49 AM »

Where are you getting this idea that McCain has all this power?

Edit: And considering Obama and Hillary are nearly identical on their stance on issues, writing Hillary in is incredibly selfish. It's your vote, but I'd strongly consider the good of the party and the nation before making that choice. I highly doubt Hillary would want you to write her in.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2008, 09:51:22 PM »

DAMN!


I hope hillary will go for VP and maybe she can mediate and have some input in the choices he makes.....


where i work everyone is very republican and patriotic and they swear they're buying a shotgun and sitting on their porch and shooting anyone that comes in their property..

and that the nation will become muslim

and oh, my favorite when i was talking about human rights one guy said, "god made adam and eve, not adam and steve"


sigh...

i could only laugh.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2008, 11:05:12 PM »

I have heard the Adam and Eve thing before... along with lots of other rhyming philosophy. I enjoy it. It's very easy to make people realize how absurd they sound when they do that.

"Ah! That rhymes! Lovely. Now that that's been established; who made Steve?"
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2008, 02:36:18 PM »

I have heard the Adam and Eve thing before... along with lots of other rhyming philosophy. I enjoy it. It's very easy to make people realize how absurd they sound when they do that.

"Ah! That rhymes! Lovely. Now that that's been established; who made Steve?"
Naw, I'm still trying to figure out where Cain & Abel went to pick up chicks...  West VA, maybe?
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2008, 02:52:38 PM »

I imagine things were rough.

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2008, 02:57:58 PM »

I saw that Neanderthal chick first! 

Sure, but you left with a gorilla, so you have no claim!

Take THAT, backstabber!
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2008, 04:06:50 PM »

I would, quite seriously, I kid you not, shit my fucking pants if she's the vee pee.

FO' SHIZZ, MUTHA FUCKA.

He'd be an idiot not to offer her the spot. My personal feelings about Hillary aside, neither Obama nor Hillary have the power to take on McCain alone. I was hoping for Hillary to win the primary, with Obama as the VP, but that didn't come about. If Obama doesn't offer Hillary the spot, there will be a fuckton of pissed off Hillary supporters who will either stay home or vote for McCain, costing Obama essential votes. There's no way he can win without her support, just as she couldn't have won without his support.

Personally, I'm one of those pissed off Hillary supporters. If she's not selected as his VP, I'll be writing her in, just as I suspect many others will be doing.

If he offered her the spot, it would only be out of pressure from the party. I'm pretty sure it won't happen.


That being said, if Obama wins, I'm going to throw myself from the 696 and Gratiot overpass. The locals here might see me on the news. My brother is hoping he gets assassinated. I don't doubt that there may be attempts.
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$ethie

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2008, 04:35:44 PM »

I would, quite seriously, I kid you not, shit my fucking pants if she's the vee pee.

FO' SHIZZ, MUTHA FUCKA.

He'd be an idiot not to offer her the spot. My personal feelings about Hillary aside, neither Obama nor Hillary have the power to take on McCain alone. I was hoping for Hillary to win the primary, with Obama as the VP, but that didn't come about. If Obama doesn't offer Hillary the spot, there will be a fuckton of pissed off Hillary supporters who will either stay home or vote for McCain, costing Obama essential votes. There's no way he can win without her support, just as she couldn't have won without his support.

Personally, I'm one of those pissed off Hillary supporters. If she's not selected as his VP, I'll be writing her in, just as I suspect many others will be doing.

If he offered her the spot, it would only be out of pressure from the party. I'm pretty sure it won't happen.


That being said, if Obama wins, I'm going to throw myself from the 696 and Gratiot overpass. The locals here might see me on the news. My brother is hoping he gets assassinated. I don't doubt that there may be attempts.

I feel the same way about either candidate this year. Granted, Obama is the lesser of two evils, but if he chooses Hillary as his VP and gets assassinated, at least we'll have a somewhat better president.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2008, 04:54:15 PM »

Stunning. Absolutely stunning.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2008, 09:13:26 PM »

That being said, if Obama wins, I'm going to throw myself from the 696 and Gratiot overpass. The locals here might see me on the news. My brother is hoping he gets assassinated. I don't doubt that there may be attempts.


It's his hairstyle, isn't it?
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2008, 09:34:31 PM »

Sethie, Obama would not be stronger if he gave into the Hillary supporters, and chose her at his VP. that would be an obvious sign of weakness. immense weakness, actually. at this point the only differences between Obama and Hillary are a couple of policies, and attitude. honestly, they're almost the same entity.

Obama would be stronger if he chose somebody like Edwards, Biden, or somebody with experience (except Ron Paul). Hillary has experience, but the air is sour between them, and she campaigns on the platform of her husband's experience, not her own. it just seems like there would be more bickering than work being done. i also agree with Cee on how it should be handled. i cannot believe how childish the extremists for Obama or Hillary have been.

this isn't fucking American Idol. this is Democracy, and if you're a Democrat, and you don't vote Democrat simply because your guy didn't get it, then that's kind of shameful. i dislike Hillary, but i would vote for her without a doubt if she won as the Democratic nominee. also, McCain has been recently photographed sucking on GW's tits, and the slogan for his campaign is "Honor". i just don't think it should be that hard for Obama to take him alone.

if Obama can take Hillary and her merry band of rabid supporters, Fox News, and all the racists in the country, ...i think he can take McCain all by his biddy lomesome.

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2008, 10:03:34 PM »

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2008, 10:17:57 PM »

Robert Byrd

any relation, Rob? or shall i say....Robert?! y'all look the same to me.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2008, 10:43:17 PM »

It's his hairstyle, isn't it?

Now that you've discovered the secret to my hatred, you'll have to be dealt with, as well. Expect a knock on your door in 20 minutes or so. Don't struggle, it'll only make things worse.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2008, 11:11:36 PM »

Obama's election should be a happy thing for you. In this brave, new world, even your brother could be elected!
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2008, 12:08:50 AM »

Obama's election should be a happy thing for you. In this brave, new world, even your brother could be elected!

HAHAHAHAHA! HA!

And Seth, I'm insanely curious as to your current political philosophies and logic. You didn't answer me, here or in the other thread.

Quote
Granted, Obama is the lesser of two evils

That, to me, implies you put McCain and Obama on essentially the same level. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

Er. Aren't you gay? Based on just that one issue, how on earth could you consider Obama and McCain on the same tier? And write in Hilary, giving McCain a better chance to get into office? Do you care about issues, or are you just pissed off?
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2008, 01:06:24 AM »

~goes out now to buy that Ben and Jerrys Cake Batter ice cream, as she isn't really partial to popcorn~
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2008, 03:06:15 AM »

Quote
Granted, Obama is the lesser of two evils

That, to me, implies you put McCain and Obama on essentially the same level. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

Er. Aren't you gay? Based on just that one issue, how on earth could you consider Obama and McCain on the same tier? And write in Hilary, giving McCain a better chance to get into office? Do you care about issues, or are you just pissed off?


Obama and McCain are certainly not on the same level. That is, McCain is a neo-nazi warmonger, and I have no problems with Obama other than his Pastor, the fact that he plans getting the United States involved in Darfur, and he's very into coal and other forms of energy that are horrible for the environment. I do care about the issues, and given a choice between Obama and McCain, I'm forced to choose Obama.*

But like I said, I have some serious problems with him. Reverend White, for one. You don't attend a church for twenty years, presided over by someone so hateful and racist, without sharing some of his ideals. He's also said that he's going to end the Darfur genocide, which is just going to be another huge military expenditure. I'm sure I'll piss people off with this statement, but someone has to say it: I don't give one flying shit about Darfur.  People have been killing each other in Sudan since the fifties, and I don't see why it's anyone's problem but their own. One of two things can happen: Either they'll eventually sort it out, and then they'll all go out for ice cream, or they'll all kill each other. There is no reason why the United States government should spend taxpayer money to place military forces in Sudan when we already have a huge defecit from our current military expeditions.

I have some problems with his energy plan, but I had problems with the energy plan proposed by all three major candidates, so I won't even get into it here.

In short, I probably will vote for him. He's better than McCain.


*yes, I know I said I'd be writing hillary in. When I posted that, there had been no news of what Hillary was doing and I was pissed. I won't be writing hillary in.
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caddy

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2008, 03:28:36 AM »

the Reverend Wright issue was taken out of context, just like everything else that gets handled by the press, the internet, and Fox News. you're getting this information from the same people who told you Obama was sworn in on the Koran.

which was not true. i need to elaborate, now that i have found some evidence to back up my claim. the original article was posted by a conservative website, that tried to say Obama was at one of the man's meetings. this is what Newsmax said,

"In a posting this evening, Newsmax.com reports that its correspondent witnessed Sen. Barack Obama attending one of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright's anti-white sermons on July 22 and nodding his head in agreement with the black congregation."

amazingly, here is what even Fox News was able to find out,

"Reports circulated over the weekend that Obama had attended the fiery sermon that day by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. But a copy of Obama’s schedule viewed by FOX News as well as video of Obama speaking appear to place him in Miami that day at a convention of the National Council of La Raza.

A National Council of La Raza official recalls Obama arriving on time that day for a 1:30 p.m. event that was part of the group’s annual national convention."

the Wright anti-racial conference was in Chicago. Obama was in Miami at 1:30pm on the exact same day, July 22nd. as for Obama's relationship with Reverend Wright, you can be friends with somebody, and not agree with their bad qualities, but agree on a spiritual level. like on, say, God. i have friends who have opinions about things that i disagree with. heavy things. i am still their friend, and have a relationship with them.

okay. let me specify. there is no way Obama could be anti-white, because his GRANDPARENTS are white. a little common sense goes a long way.
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Molotovna

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2008, 08:39:15 AM »

Obama's election should be a happy thing for you. In this brave, new world, even your brother could be elected!

Aww, dang.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2008, 11:09:34 AM »

Robert Byrd

If he weren't so damn old, that wouldn't necessarily be as f'ed up as it seems...
At the same time, the parallel to young unknown Bush and creepy unelectible-in-his-own-right old Palpatine Cheney is a little creepy.

Byrd is generally believed to have renounced the Dark Side (so to speak) many years ago.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2008, 12:26:46 PM »

Obama's election should be a happy thing for you. In this brave, new world, even your brother could be elected!

Aww, dang.

Really though... in this world with so many problems that cause so much suffering, how can anyone let race... this illusion... be a factor in making a legitimate decision? There are so many hate fueled bastions of misery, how can it be justified? How is it not an assault on humanity to join the chorus of bigotry in a situation in which so much is at stake? When does this shit stop? How self-defeating must we be, for how long, before sanity rises from the ruins of social holocaust? How can community after community of nigger hating white trash hicks fall into the most bitter, drunken, financially depressed squalor and not have everyone realize that bigotry is the most disgusting crime a person can commit? It spawns so much negative energy. We were ready to take up arms against Iraq... of course. There are even arguments for the legitimacy of the invasion, but the spirit of the people... the spirit of the people just wanted to kill off those goddamn, towel head, sand niggers. That's what was in the fever of millions of waving flags.

Your brother hopes Obama is assassinated? I hope he takes the first shot... and misses. Maybe then that national hatred can start to channel in tte direction of someone who deserves it. You'd throw yourself off a highway overpass? I'm really reaching for a way to take that as something other than racism. I know you have declared your own bigotry in the past, and I know that subtle strains of racism abound... but now we're talking about some serious nigger lynching mentality. If that's where you're coming from, I'll google directions the route 696 and Gratiot overpass..
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2008, 01:50:24 PM »


Really though... in this world with so many problems that cause so much suffering, how can anyone let race... this illusion... be a factor in making a legitimate decision? There are so many hate fueled bastions of misery, how can it be justified? How is it not an assault on humanity to join the chorus of bigotry in a situation in which so much is at stake? When does this shit stop? How self-defeating must we be, for how long, before sanity rises from the ruins of social holocaust? How can community after community of nigger hating white trash hicks fall into the most bitter, drunken, financially depressed squalor and not have everyone realize that bigotry is the most disgusting crime a person can commit? It spawns so much negative energy. We were ready to take up arms against Iraq... of course. There are even arguments for the legitimacy of the invasion, but the spirit of the people... the spirit of the people just wanted to kill off those goddamn, towel head, sand niggers. That's what was in the fever of millions of waving flags.

Your brother hopes Obama is assassinated? I hope he takes the first shot... and misses. Maybe then that national hatred can start to channel in tte direction of someone who deserves it. You'd throw yourself off a highway overpass? I'm really reaching for a way to take that as something other than racism. I know you have declared your own bigotry in the past, and I know that subtle strains of racism abound... but now we're talking about some serious nigger lynching mentality. If that's where you're coming from, I'll google directions the route 696 and Gratiot overpass..

Please don't misunderstand, this has nothing to do with Obama's race or historical background. My political views just don't match up with his own. I find him to be much less that the savior that everyone - including himself - is making him out to be [awkward phrasing, but I think you get what I mean]. The bit about the assassination and overpass throwing was a joke and not meant to be taken seriously by any, which I should have specified, I suppose.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2008, 02:38:48 PM »

oh yeah. Freaky's brother.

the one who amazingly looks like CADDY?! (that meant he had really pale skin, hazel eyes, and breasts, right? i hate it when little boys get breasts).
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2008, 02:48:29 PM »

oh yeah. Freaky's brother.

the one who amazingly looks like CADDY?! (that meant he had really pale skin, hazel eyes, and breasts, right? i hate it when little boys get breasts).

Ah, no.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2008, 03:35:13 PM »

I think Caddy means this:

Quote from: freakystyley
Now residing in Maryvile, Tennessee until the end of july. Here's a picutre of my 2 year old adopted brother. He's a ham. And sort of resembles...Caddy!?!


I was just talking about this:

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Quote from: freakystyley
I'm a bigot. A huge bigot, but I don't see it as a fault, because I choose to be one. I like it. A lot.



Quote from: 85283-071
Against what group or groups of people?


Quote from: freakystyley
Well, I can name them and say silly reasons why i don't like them, but I honestly don't have good, verified reasons why to not like them at all, and so I don't feel truly justified in my dislike for them. But I don't like them, and that's that. [shrug]
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2008, 03:46:55 PM »

Yes, I was quite aware of what she meant.



I am telling you, though, that my thoughts on Obama aren't based on his skin color. I am rather surprised you took the time to go and find those specific posts, but I don't find myself to be going back on my words at all. What I said then doesn't have a thing to do with what I'm saying now. Regardless of his ethnicity, I don't care for Barack Obama. I'm sorry if you thought so.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2008, 08:31:40 PM »

If he weren't so damn old, that wouldn't necessarily be as f'ed up as it seems...  At the same time, the parallel to young unknown Bush and creepy old Palpatin... Uh, Cheney...  is a little creepy.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2008, 11:37:53 PM »


Obama and McCain are certainly not on the same level. That is, McCain is a neo-nazi warmonger

You will find that the Democratic platform is much closer to the essence of fascism than that of McCain or the larger Republican party.

Fascism is typified by totalitarian attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic, by way of a strong, single-party government for enacting laws...

Fascism exalts the nation, state, or group of people as superior to the individuals composing it. Fascism uses explicit populist rhetoric; calls for a heroic mass effort to restore past greatness; and demands loyalty to a single leader, leading to a cult of personality and unquestioned obedience to orders. Fascism is also considered to be a form of collectivism.

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2008, 12:03:11 AM »


Obama and McCain are certainly not on the same level. That is, McCain is a neo-nazi warmonger

You will find that the Democratic platform is much closer to the essence of fascism than that of McCain or the larger Republican party.

Fascism is typified by totalitarian attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic, by way of a strong, single-party government for enacting laws...

Fascism exalts the nation, state, or group of people as superior to the individuals composing it. Fascism uses explicit populist rhetoric; calls for a heroic mass effort to restore past greatness; and demands loyalty to a single leader, leading to a cult of personality and unquestioned obedience to orders. Fascism is also considered to be a form of collectivism.



I have huge problems with McCain, mostly based on the facts that he's pro-life, he believes nuclear power to be the solution to climate change, and he's very pro-gun. I would never vote for him. I know that he's not actually a fascist, and calling him a neo-nazi was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the last president that the GOP produced. Patriot act, anyone?

He is a warmonger, however. I read somewhere that he's willing to stay in the Middle East until the job is done, and wouldn't be opposed to staying there another hundred years.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2008, 12:59:11 AM »

he did, in fact, say that.


Rob. love me. don't vote for John.

i will make you and your wife yummie teacakes. you just can't say no to teacakes. =)
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Rob

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2008, 01:29:26 PM »

I'll write Ron Paul in just for you.

There is no way I could vote for a socialist.  Not for all the tea cakes in wherever teacakes come from.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2008, 04:54:00 PM »

don't write Ron Paul in for me. >_>'


and now tell me, exactly, what is wrong with socialism? especially when he's not even trying to build socialist healthcare. Obama's whole plan is just to make it more affordable, last time i checked. it could have changed. aside from that anything "socialist" thing he tried to do would have to be voted for by the people. i doubt this country, a country that keeps trying to vote away our rights one by one (like abortion, gay marriage, etc.) is going to happy do whatever Obama tells them to do.

any if they did? well shit, our economy is fucked to shit as it is. it can only get worse if we go into a depression, and that's saying a whole lot.
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Rob

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2008, 05:58:01 PM »

Obama stands firmly on the principles of the father-knows-best philosophy of government. 

He believes that there is not a problem in the world that goverment can't fix.  I say, most of the problems we face are caused by government getting in where it doesn't belong.

Yes, government does need to set boundaries where human rights are involved.  I believe there is already a document in place that serves that pupose.

However, government should not be in the business of subsidizing commerce, regulating prices, and bailing out failed ventures.

Government should not bail out either the floundering financial institutions or the people who entered into ridiculously unrealistic contracts to purchase homes with them.  Yes. the aftermath of this fiasco is painful, but without enduring the pain of shuch a mistake, no lesson will be learned.  Obama wants to use my money to pay other peoples' mortgages because they made a decision that I was not foolish enough to make.  Without the sting of reality, the devistation is likely to be much worse should such a thing happen again.

Amtrac has been a losing proposition since its inception in 1970.  This service was supposed to be self sufficient by '73.  As of 2008, the people are still footing a portion of the bill to keep it operating.  Why should it stand on its own?  Why should it revise its business plan or scheduling to reflect reality when daddy is always there to paty the rent?

Obama believes he, and he alone knows what the people need.  He alone can stand for us against a multitude of adversities

I say, the American people know what we need.  We just need to be strong enough to stand for it in the face of a challenge.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2008, 06:35:14 PM »

Everytime I read your political thoughts Rob, it almost convinces me to go Republican. Too bad so many of your brethren are pants-on-head-retarded.

Its like you take the Republican views at their core, and leave out the wacko-factor. It's refreshing.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2008, 08:50:26 PM »

Amtrac has been a losing proposition since its inception in 1970.  This service was supposed to be self sufficient by '73.  As of 2008, the people are still footing a portion of the bill to keep it operating.  Why should it stand on its own?  Why should it revise its business plan or scheduling to reflect reality when daddy is always there to paty the rent?
Please prepare for me a five page, 10-point, double-spaced paper comparing and contrasting government subsidy of the more efficient passenger rail vs. 100% government funded highways upon which less efficient, more dangerous, and more eco-hostile transportation is carried out.  You will be graded for speling and, puntuation.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2008, 12:11:27 AM »

Amtrac has been a losing proposition since its inception in 1970.  This service was supposed to be self sufficient by '73.  As of 2008, the people are still footing a portion of the bill to keep it operating.  Why should it stand on its own?  Why should it revise its business plan or scheduling to reflect reality when daddy is always there to paty the rent?
Please prepare for me a five page, 10-point, double-spaced paper comparing and contrasting government subsidy of the more efficient passenger rail vs. 100% government funded highways upon which less efficient, more dangerous, and more eco-hostile transportation is carried out.  You will be graded for speling and, puntuation.

did you mean to misspell "spelling and punctuation"?



Rob, while i have read your diatribe about government and America, and where government doesn't need to be, do you think the government should be keeping us overseas in Iraq for "as long as we need to be there", pushing us further into debt for "war funding", while many soldiers fighting overseas see probably 1/10th of what our government "claims" is going towards the War on Terrorism?

because if you do, then that sounds kind of hypocritical. all that up there.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2008, 03:39:05 AM »

If republicans hadn't been so dead set against allowing government to control the practices of lenders, we wouldn't be in this housing crisis. You're already paying for it. Every dollar that falls off the value of your home is payment for the myth of laissez faire utopia. You could save the average taxpayer more money with a lowered threshold for defining usory loans than could ever be done with a tax cut... without depleting the national coffers. But no... that is between the consumer and the lender, right? Maybe we should just remove all regulation? Loan sharking would become legal business practice. Speculative stock purchases could be next. That only almost destroyed America once, and now we have to deal with socialism.

Tax cuts are a myth anyway. Watch local taxes rise whenever federal taxes are lowered. Someone has to pay for public works, or the values of communities go down. Federal subsidies go to communities. When they dry up, communities take their cut directly from the people... or they let the services go to hell, and the values of properties go down on that count as well.

It's an emotional thing. We are told it's our money... we should be allowed to keep it. We feel that sting when we see taxes take a big chunk out of our pay. Naturally, we want the guy who will let us keep the most money. Hell, W. Bush actually promised money from the coffers to pay BACK to the people. Ha! Brilliant. He actually bought votes with money he would only have access to if elected. Three hundred dollars. Six hundred for those of you with kids, right? Then a few dollars here and there in cuts. Of course, it left us in no way prepared for fiscal crisis.

Social programs do not equal socialism. We are so far right of socialism that using the word is insulting. I have lived in a socialist nation. I know the tax structure. Really, most of the nations we called communist were really socialist. What am I doing? It all comes down to "they entered into a contract" and "why should I have to pay?"

You have to pay because we all suffer for the fucking nickel and diming. I'm tired of the right calling every government action (other than the ones that try to legislate us into morality) an attempt at paternalizing government. We have to be pragmatic, and this rugged individualism is fucking us all right in the ass. It's time to pony up and help fix this mess. Ronald Reagan dressed it up as "trickle down theory". That was the biggest crock of bullshit to ever fail math. The world's greatest economic disparities have been casused by similar policies. The powers that be, allowed to have the money to invest in business, to grow the economy, which is supposed to help us all, DO NOT let that shit trickle down anything.

The republican party sells pipe dreams to the financially indignant. Alaskan oil?! That will bring the price of oil down about fifty cents a barrel. What's it at now? $117 and something? They actually get votes on that issue. It's a farce, and they all know it. They are toying with you. If I hear one more person suggest a bunch of hippies crying over caribou are the reason gas prices are so high, I'm going to summon all the tourist boards, hunters and trappers in Canada and Alaska to come pump all the acid rain stemming from oil production right up his or her ass. Those are the ones that will be hurt... and NO ONE will be helped. Well... some big oil stockholders, but they're using $100 dollar bills as cum rags already.

A two-party system would be fine... checks and balances...great... but one of those parties is republican. That has been screwing us for decades. We've let the bullies look out for the kids, and the bullies keep telling us it's the kids' fault for being pussies.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2008, 02:45:06 PM »

As I already said.  Yes it will hurt at first. 

Loan sharks will only be in business as long as their is demand for loan sharking.  Any shrewd business man or woman would see an excellent opportunity to offer money at a reasonable rate.  Making a little less on each individual loan will lead to a higher gross profit.  The market will self adjust.

Yes, train and plane tickets would be higher if the government stayed out of the industries, we would actually have to pay what the services were worth.  What an outrage!

As for higher local taxes resulting from lower federal taxes.  I'll take the trade off.  I have said since I began talking politics with you that local government is more responsive and efficient than the lumbering bureaucracies we are dealing with now.  In reality, much of the federal tax money used for infrastructure repairs and maintenance goes to local contractors only after it has been funneled through various departments at the national level and they have all taken their cut.  Often, the prices paid for the work are much higher than they would have been had the local citizens hired the contractor directly.

Furthermore, you are right.  The current "Republican" president has operated without regard o what the party stands for at its core.  He is far enough right on social issues to piss off every liberal in the world, yet he spends money like the king of the Democrats.  The Republican party must get back to its roots if it wants to retain what shred of credibility it has.  Tax cuts will only make our problems worse unless coupled with cuts in spending.

Let it be known that I blame no hippies for the price of fuel.  The price is set by the market.  You've all heard of supply and demand, right?

I am all for alternative energy sources.  I am not for artificially low costs.  If the technology is feasible, the market will bare that out.  If enough people feel it is really worth the true cost, there will be progress.  It works with cell phones and mp3 players. It will work in any free market.

Thanks Kovacs.  I am a conservative by principle, a Republican by necessity.  I will gladly embrace the next nonkooky conservative 3rd party to come along.

Finally, it's time for the kids to grow up.  Momma's not here.  Fix your own damn supper, tie your own damn shoes and wipe your own damn ass!
 
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2008, 04:25:17 PM »

Please prepare for me a five page, 10-point, double-spaced paper comparing and contrasting government subsidy of the more efficient passenger rail vs. 100% government funded highways upon which less efficient, more dangerous, and more eco-hostile transportation is carried out.  You will be graded for speling and, puntuation.

Highways work.  Autos may be more dangerous and less efficient but the end result is better customer service.

The current Amtrac business plan does not work.  If it is going to be a government program, get the private sector out entirely.  Otherwise, let it succeed or fail on its own merit. 

Anything else I said would just be fluff.  Let's not waste our time with that.

Rob, while i have read your diatribe about government and America, and where government doesn't need to be, do you think the government should be keeping us overseas in Iraq for "as long as we need to be there", pushing us further into debt for "war funding", while many soldiers fighting overseas see probably 1/10th of what our government "claims" is going towards the War on Terrorism?

because if you do, then that sounds kind of hypocritical. all that up there.

I will have to be very McCain in my response.  While it might not have been the best idea to go over there in the first place, it would be a disaster to retreat prematurely.  Remember, we still have troops in Korea, Germany, Cuba.  Why don't we bring them all back home too.

We should bring our troops home from Iraq, as soon as the climate is right.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #61 on: June 12, 2008, 10:07:58 PM »

the comment i dislike is that we should keep them over there for as LONG as possible. the comments i want to hear is that we will have a plan that helps us withdraw slowly and steadily, without creating another Afghanistan. i don't want us out immediately, because that would be brutal, considering what we have done to their economy. i don't think there is a right answer for how to get out, because we've mucked up the situation so much, that there is no right answer.

i don't want to pull out immediately, but i don't want to stay for the next hundred years. societies run better when they develop their own free market, and then a government that works with the people. i wouldn't mind seeing a Federal government that worked properly in Iraq. i wouldn't mind seeing that in many places that have people who need the help.

my god. you've voting for McCain. i would rather you pencil in Ron Paul.
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Rob

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #62 on: June 12, 2008, 10:24:32 PM »

We should keep them there no longer than necessary.

Ron Paul it is.

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$ethie

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2008, 12:48:10 AM »

We should keep them there no longer than necessary.

Ron Paul it is.



Didn't he drop out?

Besides, libertarians are just conservatives that like to smoke pot.
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caddy

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2008, 02:17:49 AM »

you can write in who ever you want, really. i believe. i could be dead wrong. besides, i would prefer a pot-smoking libertarian.


in other news, Olbermann had this to say about Senator McCain,


Part 1,
<a href="http://youtube.com/watch/v/vHcu1-3zteQ" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://youtube.com/watch/v/vHcu1-3zteQ</a>


Part 2,
<a href="http://youtube.com/watch/v/ISmaTyKjx3U" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://youtube.com/watch/v/ISmaTyKjx3U</a>
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CeeGBee

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2008, 02:32:01 AM »

Highways work.  Autos may be more dangerous and less efficient but the end result is better customer service.
So, they work, except that they cost more to operate, pollute the atmosphere more, and kill more people?
The only benefit is a nominal convenience factor that we're all gonna have to get over as we're forced to
look at how much it costs us to drive each individual mile.

The current Amtrac business plan does not work.  If it is going to be a government program, get the private sector out entirely.  Otherwise, let it succeed or fail on its own merit. 
So you'd endorse a fully-nationalized rail system, rather than making the adjustments necessary to
make a private or part-private system profitable?  It's actually a faily simple fix.  Adding additional
track parallel with existing routes would require some initial investment, but under the current system,
the freight lines own all the track, and Amtrak has to fit passenger schedules to the whims of
freight carriers.  Devoted long-distance passenger track would allow more customer-friendly scheduling,
which, combined with the rapidly rising costs to drive or fly pretty much anywhere, would lead to more
riders, creating...  ta-da! Profitability!  At the same time, the additional land required would be relatively
little, analogous to adding traffic lanes to the interstate.


Oh, also, there are things like market forces, supply & demand, but a huge piece of the current $4
gallon of gas is Dick Cheney's "energy task force", the members of which he still refuses to name.
The operative terms here are market manipulation, collusion, price-fixing, and conspiracy.
The short supply rationalization would fly better if any of the major oil companies were running
their refineries at full capacity, or even close, but as long as they have an agreement not to undercut
each other, there's no need.  Government regulation is supposed to protect us from this sort of thing,
but clearly our current executive branch is unconcerned with the good of commoners.

  You will be graded for speling and, puntuation.

did you mean to misspell "spelling and punctuation"?
I also meant to put the comma after "and".
I'm taking points off for failing to catch that.

(...but I'll give 'em back for the Olbermann post.  Ouch!
I don't have cable, so I'd have missed that.)
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Rob

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2008, 09:49:14 AM »

All of McCain's comments that were cited in the Olberman piece are easily reconcilable if one uses just a bit of common sence.

There is not a person here who would disagree that it is the fact that are troops are in harms way that we are concerned with.  Where is the outrage that our troops are in Germany, that our troops are in Korea, that our troops are in Japan?  It doesn't exist, because the risk level is so low as to be nonexistant. 

That is the point McCain was making when he said that when they came home was not important...that eliminating U.S. casualties was important.  Not too many people would have a problem with leaving them there if they weren't in harms way.  It is The Senators goal to remove the threat of violence, so that we might pull out a majority of our soldiers by 2013, and leave a small support and traing contingent.  That's not really all that hard to understand, is it?

So you'd endorse a fully-nationalized rail system, rather than making the adjustments necessary to
make a private or part-private system profitable?  It's actually a faily simple fix.  Adding additional
track parallel with existing routes would require some initial investment, but under the current system,
the freight lines own all the track, and Amtrak has to fit passenger schedules to the whims of
freight carriers.  Devoted long-distance passenger track would allow more customer-friendly scheduling,
which, combined with the rapidly rising costs to drive or fly pretty much anywhere, would lead to more
riders, creating...  ta-da! Profitability!  At the same time, the additional land required would be relatively
little, analogous to adding traffic lanes to the interstate.

38 years is more than enough adjustment time.  Let's face it, it won't work.

Many municiple rail systems appear to be doing fine right now.  There must be a way to make it work.

Start your commuter rail installation company.  I will be first in line at the I.P.O.  If it is what the people want and need, you can't lose.  Then, passengers won't have to deal with those flighty freight companies.
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Rob

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2008, 09:59:50 AM »

Oh, also, there are things like market forces, supply & demand, but a huge piece of the current $4
gallon of gas is Dick Cheney's "energy task force", the members of which he still refuses to name.
The operative terms here are market manipulation, collusion, price-fixing, and conspiracy.
The short supply rationalization would fly better if any of the major oil companies were running
their refineries at full capacity, or even close, but as long as they have an agreement not to undercut
each other, there's no need.  Government regulation is supposed to protect us from this sort of thing,
but clearly our current executive branch is unconcerned with the good of commoners

Oil refineries pollute the air and ground water.  Surely, your not suggesting we pollute our environment in the name of cheper fuel.
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85283-071

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2008, 05:19:54 PM »

The fact that a local tax might be preferable to a federal tax does not change the fact that federal tax cuts are fallacious and a con job when used as a campaign strategy. If we are turning things local, which I agree should be done in many cases, there will have to be accompanying restructurin of responsibilities and jurisdictions. No tax cut campaign promise I have ever heard has addressed that.

As far as curbing interest rates, my concern is over greater things than 'hurting a little". The Great Depression did more than hurt a little, and it could have been prevented with the proper regulation. Some government oversight is needed or the market (orlabor) can be manipulated in a way that consumers cannot realistically correct. Here's an example of an advantage that would be had through market force corrections. Trains versus road traffic. The amount of pollution prevented, and the highway congestion reduction (a public safety issue) is made possible by railroad subsidies. The advantage would be seen in even greater fashion if freight rail was also subsidised. Of course, mergers would help with the latter as well, but that's another discussion. Interstate transportation is a national concern. So is pollution. For that matter, so is the real estate market and fuel cost. There are places for government intervention. The world has become dense, and the concerns of one community are the concerns of others. History has shown that laissez faire is detrimental to a society. In a small community, the disparity between those with power and those without is smaller and more manageable, but in a population of hundreds of millions, that measure become the stuff of absolute devastation of communities. When this economic entropy starts to spread, there is a scarmble by those with the advantage to cover their own asses. They leave the rest... the majority of us to deal with the wreckage.

It's not one or the other. We don't need to bring everything under one umbrella, but the cry of socialism at every hint of federal involvement in a community problem has created an absolutist rejection, by a certain range of the political spectrum, of federal action. Every time we get rid of someone causing that sort of damage (Reagan, for instance) we make some progress, but the right starts crying about communism.

I think the Republican Party is beyond restoring credibility, and I think the current idea of conservatism is incompatible with the cooperative needs of this shrinking world.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2008, 07:02:04 PM »

hi, rob.

i respect your viewpoint and would find it difficult to adjust and refine mine without your particular input on subjects like this.

that said, i'm compelled to add my voice to nyyorksky..whatever-the-fuck-his-name-is-today's. taking responsibility for one’s financial well-being is certainly a hallmark of adulthood, but the adult playing field is not equal. predatory lending practices DO exist and legislation to address them (state and federal) is in everyone’s best interest.

continuing to polarize by party affiliation around this and other issues slows down our collective progress.

ex-subprime brokers help troubled homeowners

the great seduction

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2008, 07:48:48 PM »

That second article is a great one. A household with income under $13,000 spends, on average, $645 a year on lottery tickets? Nine percent of their income? Holy shit. I hadn't even thought about payday lenders. Very, very good link.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2008, 12:52:21 PM »

That second article is a great one. A household with income under $13,000 spends, on average, $645 a year on lottery tickets? Nine percent of their income? Holy shit.

Don't worry, the food stamps make up for it.  Maybe my tax money should just go to quick picks for the homeless.

I spent...let's see...exactly $0.00 last year on the lottery.  How terribly irresponsible of me.
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CeeGBee

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2008, 01:12:45 PM »

That second article is a great one. A household with income under $13,000 spends, on average, $645 a year on lottery tickets? Nine percent of their income? Holy shit.
Don't worry, the food stamps make up for it.  Maybe my tax money should just go to quick picks for the homeless.
Kinda like telling 'em, "If you don't want to have more kids, stop having sex"...

While I'm not particularly sympathetic to people who spend their food money on lotto tickets,
the tickets are marketed that way, making the lottery in effect a regressive tax:  nobody's
making you play, and the better-off you are, the less likely to pay you are; if your money's
tight, hey, the [fill in amount] "TOP PRIZE PAYOUT" sure would make life easier, wouldn't it?
The legislation that first enabled the VA government to create a lottery specifically described
what could and could not be included in advertising.  Basic stats, in...  "enticements", out....
Now the PAYOUT AMOUNT (a statistic) is presented as an enticement with music,
jugglers, dancing poodles and the like,and the actual odds on winning (another statistic) are included in the fast-talk at the end of the ad.


Recently, the state's been sued for continuing to advertise various games after all of the top
amount prizes have been claimed.



To argue further in no particular direction:  How do ya fix the problem?  Maybe if you declare
people receiving Public Assistance ineligible to win the lottery?  For their own good, that would
be a good idea, but it'd never fly...
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2008, 02:07:22 PM »

Part of the reason there is no outrage over troops in Germany, Japan, Italy and England, inaddition to their not being in harm's way, is that there tours of duty are not regularly extended, and they number less than half of the total number of troops deployed in regions to "curb terrorism".
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CeeGBee

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2008, 04:28:29 PM »

Part of the reason there is no outrage over troops in Germany, Japan, Italy and England, inaddition to their not being in harm's way, is that there tours of duty are not regularly extended, and they number less than half of the total number of troops deployed in regions to "curb terrorism".
...and in Germany, England etc an American serviceman (or -woman) isn't literally risking his/her
life by leaving the base alone, unarmed, and/or in uniform.  It might be something to do with the
locals not all despising the American occupation presence.
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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2008, 02:01:54 PM »

*bump*

Just throwing this out there: I gots the feeling that Clinton will be Obama's VP.

Just a feeling.

jdfu!

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Re: OBAMA gets the NOM.
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2008, 02:06:10 PM »

I suppose it's possible, but if I were betting:  Hillary or not-Hillary, I'd say not.
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