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Author Topic: Will you vote for Obama again?  (Read 18569 times)

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Indja

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2012, 04:04:00 AM »

I'm from the UK, and after the state of the last election I don't think I'm going to be voting for a pretty long fucking time. If they had a 'None of the above' box then sure, or I might register and spoil my vote. But honestly, I'm just sickened and disgusted by the whole affair. I do think the right to vote is important, and the vote is a precious thing, so I pretty well resent having to give it to 'the lesser evil'. If we had some way of expressing how unrepresented we felt by the parties offered then I'd be happy.

IMO, voting is an act of consent - it's saying 'yes, I accept you as my leaders'. But for consent to be meaningful and true, there necessarily has to have the option to remove or withhold consent. Voting doesn't have that, there is no 'Bollocks To The Lot Of Youse' option. So the next best thing is spoiling or not voting.
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Blue Canary

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2012, 04:09:02 AM »

I didn't vote last time because I was only 17, but I will be voting for him this time because I don't want Romney anywhere near my ladyparts.
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RiverVox

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2012, 09:11:30 AM »

I didn't vote last time because I was only 17, but I will be voting for him this time because I don't want Romney anywhere near my ladyparts.
YES!  ;D Good for you. The decisions that are made in Washington have real consequences on your life. If you care about preserving abortion rights, (hell, women's rights in general), healthcare, teaching kids actual SCIENCE, strengthening gay rights and keeping corporations under control then don't stay home. The candidates are not the same. A Republican President and Congress is Rush Limbaugh's far right Christian fundamentalist wet dream.

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Tiervexx

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2012, 10:52:17 AM »

And if your reply to this involves something like "if everyone thought that..." it is invalid because you only control you. You are not a collective that can control things.

I could convince you otherwise, and demonstrate that we affect others too.
But I would have to demonstrate it in order to convince you.

So if you allow yourself to be convinced I will prove I'm right, but you can prove you're right simply by refusing to be convinced by me, so this is a pretty exasperating argument to make.

I think you may have misunderstood what I meant.  We can convince others by talking but whether or not I personally go to the ballot box (regardless of what I say I will do) is still independent of whether or not you do.


I'm completely throwing my vote away and not voting at all this year. I don't like either of them.
Popular choice, but IMHO a poor one. 

ONE of these two is going to win the election.  If you have any preference at all, it's in everyone's interest
for you to express it.

If you believe Obama is the better candidate do you think it is in your best interest if I vote for Romney?  I don't think your statement makes sense.
Like I said...  IF you have any preference....  That goes for you and the thousands
and thousands of others who aren't terribly enthused by the available candidates.

Suppose, for whatever barely-preceived reason, 75% of you barely-prefer the same
guy?  That's got to count for something.  If, on the other hand, you're split 50/50 in
your disinterest, then no harm's been done.


I'm assuming you mean 75% of my psyche and not 75% of the electorate?  Your argument is missing a step before it becomes a rational argument.  The missing step is the probability of my vote making the difference.  Rational expectations = [the probability of the outcome] * [the value of the outcome].  As George Carlin pointed out in my video, the rational expectation of staying home and masturbating is much higher  :D

IMO, voting is an act of consent - it's saying 'yes, I accept you as my leaders'. But for consent to be meaningful and true, there necessarily has to have the option to remove or withhold consent. Voting doesn't have that, there is no 'Bollocks To The Lot Of Youse' option. So the next best thing is spoiling or not voting.

Did I ever tell you that you are an exquisite, radiant, goddess?  :love5:

I didn't vote last time because I was only 17, but I will be voting for him this time because I don't want Romney anywhere near my ladyparts.

You realize that Romney won't ban abortion either?  Obama and Romney have very different presentations but if you read between the lines they are almost the same person.  Hell, Romney was even pro gay as governor of MA.  We have every reason to think Romney would switch again if it became politically convenient for him.

I actually wanted Obama to win the 2008 election because he promised he would end the violent abuses of the Bush administration.  Millions supported him with that same hope.  Then when he got to office nothing really changed.  The will of the people was effectively poured down the toilet just as George Carlin always insisted it did.

I do not believe we literally have a one party state in America but they sure as hell act like one.

Voting third party is just as much a waste of a vote as not voting.

Something just hit me about this argument.  It is widely accepted that this argument is valid, but it is only valid because it (correctly) uses probability.  Yet when I use probability to talk about voting in the general election it is suddenly not valid anymore?!

Voting for a major party means you might vote for the winner but the apparent one part state will just go on.  Voting for a third party is clearly voting against it.  So if we are going to agree to just ignore probability when voting that is the only choice I can understand (but as I said, I won't vote because I like numbers!).
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NikosGr

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2012, 11:17:55 AM »

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/bOp0lpXtqN4" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/bOp0lpXtqN4</a>
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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2012, 11:35:45 AM »

Voting third party is just as much a waste of a vote as not voting.

Something just hit me about this argument.  It is widely accepted that this argument is valid, but it is only valid because it (correctly) uses probability.  Yet when I use probability to talk about voting in the general election it is suddenly not valid anymore?!

Voting for a major party means you might vote for the winner but the apparent one part state will just go on.  Voting for a third party is clearly voting against it.  So if we are going to agree to just ignore probability when voting that is the only choice I can understand (but as I said, I won't vote because I like numbers!).

The problem with our country, in my opinion, is third party is not widely accepted. A majority of the time when asked about political preference it is the same question. It isn't "which party do you support?" It is "are you a Democrat or a Republican?" I understand the argument of voting third party is the statement of not supporting the major parties, but if no one else votes with you to instigate that change and that statement then it is truly throwing the vote into a small pile that is essentially irrelevant.
I don't believe I belong with any political party at this point, not even third party. I haven't really found a party, or even a representative, who I would be willing to vote for in 2012. I think our country is in a bad state right now and I don't like any of the folks in DC, Republican or Democrat. If it were up to me they would all get kicked out and replaced.

CeeGBee

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2012, 03:02:15 PM »

Suppose, for whatever barely-preceived reason, 75% of you barely-prefer the same
guy?  That's got to count for something.  If, on the other hand, you're split 50/50 in
your disinterest, then no harm's been done.


I'm assuming you mean 75% of my psyche and not 75% of the electorate?

No, I meant 75% of the electorate, or rather that portion of the electorate that doesn't feel
like it has a strong preference. Suppose a statistically-significant proportion of those voters
share the same slight leaning to one side or the other?

If all those people vote the same way, the will of a lot of people has been expressed, and if
they're split down the middle, they haven't subverted the will of the folks who feel perhaps
more strongly one way or another.

And, to repeat myself, FIRE YOUR CONGRESSMAN.
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RoRi23

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2012, 03:04:29 PM »

I think that the US (and the UK for that matter) would benefit greatly from proportional representation.

Here in Germany it is much easier for minority positions to be heard (even though it is still very difficult), since all you need is 5 % of the vote to be represented in parliament. The Greens, The Left (former east German communist who teamed up with west German left wingers) and recently the Pirates are all represented in various state parliaments.

In the meantime I would implore everybody to make use of the opportunity to vote. Even if all the candidates are idiots, is is better to mark the ballot accordingly. I think staying at home sends the message that you don't care and don't mind, if they screw you. Writing "none of the idiots" on the ballot shows that you do care enough to cast a vote (of no confidence in that case) and the more people express their dissatisfaction that way the more likely it becomes that politicians start to think about what is happening.

Finally, I'm quite afraid that a possibly victory for Romney would further encourage the radical right. And while it does hold a certain kind of sick fascination to watch the US accelerating towards chaos and doom, it scares the hell out of me, too, since your military is far too big for the rest of the world to take the breakdown of the US government lightly.
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CeeGBee

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2012, 03:18:12 PM »

Indeed...  Our entire political structure has devolved into two (and ONLY two) factions,
and they seem to be run more and more by idealogues and demagogues who have no
concept of the actual needs of the country.  They get their "message" out in nothing
but slogans and soundbites, and they don't dare to compromise or look for middle ground.



I am vaguely hopeful that the Republicans, whose policies are now dominated by the "Tea
party" with it's childish oversimplified just-lower-taxes views, and the social-conservatives
who hate homosexuals, abortion, and everyone else who isn't a white protestant American
(but they down-play that last part for now), will take such a beating in the election that
their extreme factions will be driven out to splinter-parties, or perhaps their moderates will
form a new party.
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Cheddars Cousin

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2012, 04:03:34 PM »

We are a culture of followers.  There are very few innovators, a few more early adopters and many more tertiary adopters. 

Third party failure will only last as long as people who are afraid to lead,  to speak out against the status quo, and to make up their own minds allow it to.  As people see others moving in a direction, they tend to move that way themselves.  As people see they are not alone, they become more prone to speaking out and acting.

Be a leader.  Be the change you seek. 

If you just can't bring yourself to vote third party, at least show up to the polls and be counted as not wanting to vote on any of your choices.  Abstinence is better than apathy.

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2012, 05:19:23 PM »

I am vaguely hopeful that the Republicans, whose policies are now dominated by the "Tea
party" with it's childish oversimplified just-lower-taxes views, and the social-conservatives
who hate homosexuals, abortion, and everyone else who isn't a white protestant American
(but they down-play that last part for now), will take such a beating in the election that
their extreme factions will be driven out to splinter-parties, or perhaps their moderates will
form a new party.

Statements like this fuel the factions, imo.

Assuming everyone who is a registered Republican or a more right-leaning American is a hateful, white protestant who hates abortion and homosexuals is the same as assuming every single Democrat is a pro-choice religion hating socialist. We need to start looking at people as individuals and not a whole group who all believe the same thing.

Cheddars Cousin

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2012, 05:40:56 PM »

... assuming every single Democrat is a pro-choice religion hating socialist.

They're not?

CeeGBee

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2012, 11:10:39 PM »

I am vaguely hopeful that the Republicans, whose policies are now dominated by the "Tea
party" with it's childish oversimplified just-lower-taxes views, and the social-conservatives
who hate homosexuals, abortion, and everyone else who isn't a white protestant American
(but they down-play that last part for now), will take such a beating in the election that
their extreme factions will be driven out to splinter-parties, or perhaps their moderates will
form a new party.

Statements like this fuel the factions, imo.

Assuming everyone who is a registered Republican or a more right-leaning American is a hateful, white protestant who hates abortion and homosexuals is the same as assuming every single Democrat is a pro-choice religion hating socialist. We need to start looking at people as individuals and not a whole group who all believe the same thing.
Sorry, meant to spell it "Social Conservatives" (complete with quotation marks) to indicate
a splinter faction claiming to identify itself with the less radical mainstream of the party.
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Tiervexx

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2012, 12:18:52 AM »

...Suppose a statistically-significant proportion of those voters
share the same slight leaning to one side or the other?

This step in your argument is not logically valid.  You only control you.  The jump from "Zach won't vote" to "what if a statistically-significant portion..." is exactly the same as the jump from "I have a one in 175,223,510 chance to win the lottery" to "what if you had a 50% chance!"

You control one vote.  ONE.  Any argument you make based on the possibility that it is more than one is fallacious.
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Indja

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Re: Will you vote for Obama again?
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2012, 12:29:07 AM »

^Word. One person not voting doesn't have any influence on anyone else not voting. I can understand a lot of arguments against withholding your vote - not that I agree with them, but I understand them - but that's not one of them xD
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