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Author Topic: another week, another mass shooting in the USA  (Read 16609 times)

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2012, 01:34:49 PM »

definitely sad, but remember, guns, like a stapler, machete, blowgun, or anything else are merely tools; it;s the person using them that determines whether they are used for good or evil purposes.
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Miranda.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2012, 01:56:48 PM »

I don't understand this. They are saying the shooter was only 24. And I don't understand if there are 2 shooters or 1? I don't even understand ... any of it.



Edit: someone tweeted this link Disaster Distress Helpline
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2012, 03:05:39 PM »

The Shooter apparently had Mommy issues.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2012, 03:39:55 PM »

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2012, 06:16:57 PM »

This is horrible  :'(

definitely sad, but remember, guns, like a stapler, machete, blowgun, or anything else are merely tools; it;s the person using them that determines whether they are used for good or evil purposes.

"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." Maslow.

Sorry but i still think it's bullshit to consider bearing deadly arms as a civil right. We're not robots, everybody has their own weak spots and inner conflicts, and there's no guarantee that you won't go nuts and shoot innocent people for your own good purposes or reasons.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2012, 06:47:05 PM »

I have kids the same age as the ones at that school and I can't imagine how terrified those kids were when they realised what was happening in a place that up until that point had been safe. When I saw the pictures of the kids being rushed out of the school I cried. They're just babies.

Every time there is an incident like this I see many Americans get defensive about their right to own guns. What about the right of people to not be shot and killed while going about their normal everyday lives? It blows my mind that because of one person taking a shoe bomb that killed no one on a plane everyone has to take their shoes off and have them checked before boarding now but after so many deaths there is no tighter gun control.

Yesterday in China a man attacked a group of school children and adults with a knife. 22 were wounded. Thankfully none died. If he'd had a gun things would have been very different, knives can kill people but guns are much more efficient.


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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2012, 07:21:43 PM »

This is horrible  :'(

definitely sad, but remember, guns, like a stapler, machete, blowgun, or anything else are merely tools; it;s the person using them that determines whether they are used for good or evil purposes.

"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." Maslow.

Sorry but i still think it's bullshit to consider bearing deadly arms as a civil right. We're not robots, everybody has their own weak spots and inner conflicts, and there's no guarantee that you won't go nuts and shoot innocent people for your own good purposes or reasons.

Ah yes,the old "Fuck those who can deal with the responsibility because some idiots couldn't."

That is a naive sentiment.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2012, 07:37:09 PM »

Firearms are tools for killing. It seems self-evident to me that their number should be a low as possible.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2012, 08:10:46 PM »

This is horrible  :'(

definitely sad, but remember, guns, like a stapler, machete, blowgun, or anything else are merely tools; it;s the person using them that determines whether they are used for good or evil purposes.

"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." Maslow.

Sorry but i still think it's bullshit to consider bearing deadly arms as a civil right. We're not robots, everybody has their own weak spots and inner conflicts, and there's no guarantee that you won't go nuts and shoot innocent people for your own good purposes or reasons.

Ah yes,the old "Fuck those who can deal with the responsibility because some idiots couldn't."

That is a naive sentiment.

most of the laws and rules wouldn't exist if it wasn't for idiots without common sense...
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2012, 08:32:04 PM »

Firearms are tools for killing. It seems self-evident to me that their number should be a low as possible.

Perhaps the reasons behind the existing law is more to do with the fact that guns take in a lot of revenue; with licences and taxes and such.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 01:45:33 AM »

This is horrible  :'(

definitely sad, but remember, guns, like a stapler, machete, blowgun, or anything else are merely tools; it;s the person using them that determines whether they are used for good or evil purposes.

"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." Maslow.

Sorry but i still think it's bullshit to consider bearing deadly arms as a civil right. We're not robots, everybody has their own weak spots and inner conflicts, and there's no guarantee that you won't go nuts and shoot innocent people for your own good purposes or reasons.

Ah yes,the old "Fuck those who can deal with the responsibility because some idiots couldn't."

That is a naive sentiment.

most of the laws and rules wouldn't exist if it wasn't for idiots without common sense...

Yeah, and people don't walk around with 'i'm an idiot', 'i'm a normal person' signs on their foreheads. And if you are the one to defend yourself in cases of rubbery or fight, then what's the use of the police departments and legal systems?
If we all have the right(!) to bear guns and maintain our security by ourselves, well then, welcome to the jungle. Don't send your kids to the school, you know it's not safe and nobody can educate them better than you do. Don't go to the hostpital if you have a broken arm, heal it by yourself.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 03:35:33 AM »

Firearms are tools for killing. It seems self-evident to me that their number should be a low as possible.

Perhaps the reasons behind the existing law is more to do with the fact that guns take in a lot of revenue; with licences and taxes and such.
I'm pretty sure this is a huge part of it.

But I agree with Rori. Firearms are tools that were made for the singular purpose of killing.
If there were any other tool we had with such a base purpose, I would say we need to severely restrict how many of them are allowed in the public as well.
Our gun control laws are bullshit. There is barely any regulation and very little screening.

It would be a nightmare putting an effective and useful system of regulation in place, but it's very necessary, especially since it's ridiculous to think we can abolish guns completely.


And seriously, anyone who thinks that gun control laws don't need to be revamped and changed in a major (and more far more restrictive) way is an asshole. Having a right to bear whatever fucking arms you want doesn't supercede our rights to live peacefully and unmolested. Even if you are perfectly trustworthy, I can find twenty others who aren't quite so nice/sane/intelligent/younameit. If we were a society of meeting selfish needs, inherently and completely, I would understand the need to keep your guns.
We're a society of cooperation. If too many of us fail, the majority of us fails. So shooting holes in our children, creating a permanent atmosphere of fear, is in no way alright or conducive to a healthy society. And standing in the way of laws which common sense dictates will make it harder to do such things is pretty abhorrent.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2012, 09:05:12 AM »

There were actually two last week, there was a mall shooting as well as the school shooting.

Also, even if American people feel the need to have guns in their house in case someone tries to attack them in the night or whatever, what the hell to they need semi-automatics and things for? That's not sustainable hunting, and the only time you'd have that many people all breaking into your house would be if they were armed cops surrounding you, in which case you've probably already shot someone.

I think the main problem here is lack of education and the USA's gun culture. Consider Switzerland where basically everyone has a gun, but nothing like this happens. They think of guns as weapons, as opposed to toys that are cool because the constitution said so.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2012, 12:07:02 PM »

You do realize that your point about the USA and your point about Switzerland are at odds with each other, right?

Also, it's quite a large leap to suggest that armed police would only break into your home and surround you if you had already shot someone.  The 2nd amendment exists because of the very real threat that the government could and would use force against its own population at any given moment, for any given reason.  I'll admit that the threat has been minimized, but it still exists today.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2012, 12:32:08 PM »

It exists in every country, but not all of us have the right to bear arms. I think at least some of the blame should rest on the poor treatment the mentally ill get. It's highly likely this guy was mentally ill but just as unlikely that he wouldn't have been able to get help. To put a different spin on things.

Also, Astica: There have been studies done which show that the number of shooting incidents after a major one like this is directly correlated to how much media attention the major one gets. It's been recommended several times that the media tone it down and stop sensationalising things like this but it never happens.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2012, 12:58:27 PM »

To me the idea that you need an armed citizenry to keep the government at bay seems really strange.

When the US constitution was drafted and democracy was a new and unproven concept it may have made sense (though the civil war seems to indicate that armed resistance may not be the best means of defending your interests) but after two hundred years one would think that you should have managed to implement the necessary procedures and safeguards to ensure that a government no longer has to be regarded as a separate entity but as something whose composition and policies are set by the citizens.

From my point of view the US government seems to be much more likely to intrude on its citizens' freedom and liberties than most European governments even though most nations in Europe severely restrict the possession of firearms.

Ultimately the easy availability of guns is at least a contributing factor to the fact that the US have a rate of gun related deaths that is 8 times higher than Germany's and 18 times higher than the UK's and it's even worse when you don't count suicides cause than you are 50 times more likely to be killed by firearms in the US (according to this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate ).

I don't think there are benefits to widespread gun possession that outweigh that kind of disadvantage.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2012, 03:23:57 PM »

With all due respect to Rob and all Second-Amendment buffs everywhere, that wasn't the idea.
The folks writing our Constitution were creating a hybrid government, with a strong central
government AND a large degree of state-level autonomy, a situation with a whole lot of built-in
tension.  The Second Amendment was written to ensure that the Federal government couldn't
dissolve the state militias and leave the states impotent to resist some future over-reach of
Federal law.  Even though the clearest demonstration of its implications as originally intended
was in our Civil War, I am still of the view that it was a good idea. 

Modern interpretation, however, is that it is an individual right.  Further, whatever the original
intent, or the modern legal intent, of the SECOND Amendment, it is my fairly-well-educated opinion
that, if the "Founding Fathers" had dreamed for a moment that someone would try to take away
household arms from a whole population, they WOULD have included that in... ...probably
the Fourth Amendment so I have no objection to the modern, dare I say it, more liberal
interpretation of the Second.

Of course, that's all legalism and paper, and does little to address the more complicated question
of balancing the myriad real-world factors involved, to try and prevent these awful events.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2012, 04:34:27 PM »

Morgan Freeman had a great opinion about this. The issue is two-fold. One is about the way the media sensationalizes these things, where the killers get remembered and the victims fade into obscurity. The other is the lack of proper mental-health investment in the US.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2012, 05:56:51 PM »

With all due respect to Cee, at the time of the drafting of the 2nd amendment, the militia was made up of private citizens, therefore the right is expressly recognized as belonging to the individual.

Also, as the bill of rights was written to recognize  and enumerate the inalienable rights of each human citizen and to limit the powers of the Federal government, repectively. I would find it peculiar that this one amendment would address the rights of a state.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2012, 06:48:43 PM »

Surely though it should be revised to reflect modern life. There are many many laws that have now become defunct as society has changed, why not this one?*

(I do understand that it's a little bit more than a law but it can be changed nonetheless)
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2012, 07:58:19 PM »

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation

Quote
In the wake of the slaughters this summer at a Colorado movie theater and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, we set out to track mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years. We identified and analyzed 62 of them, and one striking pattern in the data is this: In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun. Moreover, we found that the rate of mass shootings has increased in recent years—at a time when America has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of new laws has made it easier than ever to carry them in public. And in recent rampages in which armed civilians attempted to intervene, they not only failed to stop the shooter but also were gravely wounded or killed.

And this has been passed around a lot, but it still a very worthwhile read: http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

Quote
I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness.

According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

Let's take better care of our ill, and put away our guns -- or at least the ones created to shoot ridiculous amounts of bullets a second.  This problem is multi-faceted, and too big and lethal to not attack from every possible preventive action.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2012, 12:33:49 AM »

I just sat down and cried when I heard this.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2012, 03:30:28 AM »

@Rob: how are my points at odds with each other? Also, if the armed offenders response people are coming to arrest you, sure, you might not have already shot someone, but wanting to own a semi-automatic so you can shoot large quantities of cops or similar is still problematic :P

I definitely think the media attention is harmful, though. I mean, as people have already said, we know so many stupid details about the guy - he used to carry a briefcase, attended LAN parties, wore his shirts with the top button done up - but most of us can't remember or never heard any of the names of the victims. I hate media censorship, but I still wish they'd keep themselves in check when it comes to things like this.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 10:05:07 AM »

I feel like the "media" has gotten so out of hand. There were so many different outlets & they were all reporting the same information with slight variations. It was like a hug fucked up game of telephone. They reported the wrong freaking person as the shooter?? wtf! How does that even happen? They said there may have been 2 shooters. They said that his dad was shot at home & his mom was among the dead at the school. They said his mom was a teacher at the school & the he shot her class. And yet, I read it. All day Friday. All Day Saturday. All day Sunday. Every article I found that I hadn't seen before. I wanted to know their names I wanted to see their faces. It seemed... appropriate. My husband kept telling me to stop reading the articles because it upset me. But how could I stop? How could I ignore that this was happening because it upset me? It just didn't seem right to turn it off when all of those people could not. I don't even know what is appropriate to say or feel because I don't really have anything to do with what happened. Except someone killed a bunch a little kids and 6 adults with lives and families & how am I not a part of that?

IDK what the solution is. gun control? mental health care? sure. great. I don't really care what it is I just hope that we figure something out. Friday there was a shooting in Newton. Saturday there was a shooting in Alabama. Sunday there was a shooting in San Antonio. wtf is wrong with the world? My sister is blogging about being afraid to leave her apartment. I'm trying not to be freaked out about going to San Antonio next weekend.  idk you guys
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2012, 11:55:54 AM »

^ Short-term, I'd like to see all guns in private hands registered and their owners assessed a yearly per-gun fee, just like we do with cars. All new guns and ammo get hit with a tax that goes to fund mental health services along with the previously mentioned fee; we've done something similar with tobacco sales. Thorough background checks? Mandatory, even if you already own firearms and want to buy more. No more gun show or internet sales, period. Possession of unregistered guns = mandatory jail time. On antidepressants? No guns for u. Convicted of a violent crime? No guns for u.

Long term? We overturned the 18th Amendment - we can at the very least rewrite the 2nd.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2012, 03:17:21 PM »

@Miranda: I understand how you feel about needing to be plugged into the media. I reacted that way with the Aurora Theater Shooting (partly because it was in my own state, in a city I frequent, and it was so freaking close to home). It's like you have to be there. You feel like you have to bear witness. You feel like you have to observe every nuance, memorize every detail, and open yourself up to feeling the pain really deeply - otherwise you're not doing the victims justice. They deserve you to go through this for them because they went through hell, and because the victims who survived are going to be going through hell for a very long time.
But it's so unhealthy. After the theater shooting I was a wreck; I seriously spent most of the day crying off and on, and was pretty unstable for days afterwards. I'm not exactly doing better this time, but I'm able to keep myself in check a bit better - and I made a conscious decision not to be plugged into what the media is saying.
They amp it up. They make it so much worse. I can process this in my own way, I can feel pain and horror and immense sadness without the media amplifying it. I can think about the teachers and the children and the parents everyday without the media making it into a sideshow and making my emotions harder for me to control.
My Mom has been doing what you've been doing - and I keep trying to get her to turn it off. Because seriously, it's  not worth it, and this isn't the proper way to grieve. It's not ignoring what's happening, it's ignoring the media feeding frenzy. It's processing it in your own way. It's grieving in a healthy manner and honoring them without the taint of the corrupt media.

@imaginary: That is a marvelous idea. And it's not taking away anyone's rights, it's just restructuring what bit of a system there is to make it far more efficient and purposeful.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2012, 09:14:44 AM »

Amanda Palmer please use your powers for good and ask your fans to sign this?
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/urge-congress-advance-federal-legislation-banning-sale-assault-rifles-high-capacity-magazines/ssgnNqVT

if there is a better petition on the go then use that instead but can you ask your fans via your internet powers to sign/take the message to the US government?

it still needs 5000 signatures and your fanbase vastly exceeds this.

Thanks, Your loyal fan and peace loving free hug giver.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2012, 09:43:48 AM »

The gun argument is a red herring. This is a mental health issue.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2012, 09:49:29 AM »

@N.U
Aye whatever dude. I know a lot of mentally ill people who go off on one but can't cause this much death and misery.
no fucker can stand by the sale of automatic weapons to the public. Anyone wants to play Rambo go join the fucking Marines.
Children shot 11 times each with bullets altered to fragment after impact.
Automatic fire. no chance of rushing/disarming the prick.
Tired of hearing America's excuses for this shit happening every year.

Miranda.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2012, 09:51:27 AM »

@Miranda: It's like you have to be there. You feel like you have to bear witness. You feel like you have to observe every nuance, memorize every detail, and open yourself up to feeling the pain really deeply - otherwise you're not doing the victims justice. They deserve you to go through this for them because they went through hell, and because the victims who survived are going to be going through hell for a very long time.


yes! that is pretty much exactly how I feel. I think though that you are right & it isn't really the proper way to handle a situation like this. I am so glad that you understand. I am going to try and step back from all the news and just mourn for those people without reading all of the information that is being put out.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2012, 11:16:52 AM »

The gun argument is a red herring. This is a mental health issue.

You're 40, right?

In your lifetime, over 1.2 million of our fellow Americans have died by the gun, and another 2.8 million have been wounded by them.

That's an awful lot of herrings.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2012, 11:17:44 AM »

@N.U
Aye whatever dude. I know a lot of mentally ill people who go off on one but can't cause this much death and misery.
no fucker can stand by the sale of automatic weapons to the public. Anyone wants to play Rambo go join the fucking Marines.
Children shot 11 times each with bullets altered to fragment after impact.
Automatic fire. no chance of rushing/disarming the prick.
Tired of hearing America's excuses for this shit happening every year.

Yeah, because other places that have gun bans never have any violence.

As I said, the gun argument is a red herring.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2012, 11:18:26 AM »

The gun argument is a red herring. This is a mental health issue.

You're 40, right?

In your lifetime, over 1.2 million of our fellow Americans have died by the gun, and another 2.8 million have been wounded by them.

That's an awful lot of herrings.

Let me ask you a question.

How many lives were saved during that same timeframe because somebody was armed?
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imaginary friend

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2012, 11:21:27 AM »

I give up. How many?

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2012, 11:53:36 AM »

I give up. How many?

That is precisely my point. They aren't tracked. Nobody knows. As such, the presentation of "facts" around this debate are heavily slanted because it is impossible to do a direct side-by-side comparison of the only two figures that matter: Gun Deaths versus lives saved by guns.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2012, 01:37:54 PM »

I just feel there isn't enough education on guns and their impact in very respect...they are too much power require little if any thought to them and their use. 
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2012, 02:18:45 PM »

@N.U.: Can't this be a multifaceted issue? I think mental health is a big part of it, but I think gun control is important as well. My older sister says that our society is 'broken' and our moral compasses are skewed in general, which is a contributing factor. I'm not touching that argument though, it's too difficult a point to get a gauge on or to argue for.
Regardless, this isn't an issue that is as simple as one or two points. There weren't one or two things that were the main problems that caused this - you can't point to gun control, or even the mental health system, and definitively say that if things had been different this wouldn't have happened.

But do you really believe that we shouldn't have any stricter of gun control? No more regulations? Not a better (or different) registration system? Do you really believe what we've got going now is working just fine, and there's no need to tweak it?
Or are you just against outright banning?
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2012, 02:27:26 PM »

I've said quite the opposite. If I had my way, I would require ALL sales, business or private, of guns to be reported through the BATF. That takes care of the end-around used by most folks who aren't allowed to buy guns to buy guns. It also hits home the point that there is a responsibility on behalf of all gun owners to make certain guns aren't getting into the wrong hands with any amount of ease.

Additionally, I'd require gun safety courses to be taught before any license to carry (open or concealed) is granted. I'd also leave open the option for the gun safety instructor to recommend a mental eval for passage if they don't feel right about it.

Now these rules, which seem fairly basic, also violate the 2nd Amendment.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2012, 02:38:03 PM »

Well, I'm still new to the board and you haven't said it in here so I haven't seen it.

Those regulations all seem incredibly reasonable. I don't know very much about the second amendment - like next to nothing. So how do those violate it? Does it literally just say that everyone has a right to bear arms? Because that sounds a bit general.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2012, 02:47:35 PM »

I give up. How many?

That is precisely my point. They aren't tracked. Nobody knows. As such, the presentation of "facts" around this debate are heavily slanted because it is impossible to do a direct side-by-side comparison of the only two figures that matter: Gun Deaths versus lives saved by guns.

So...in your mind, some theoretical Successful Instances of Defense trump 30,000 real and documented American deaths every year.

Ok,then.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2012, 03:18:27 PM »

I give up. How many?

That is precisely my point. They aren't tracked. Nobody knows. As such, the presentation of "facts" around this debate are heavily slanted because it is impossible to do a direct side-by-side comparison of the only two figures that matter: Gun Deaths versus lives saved by guns.

So...in your mind, some theoretical Successful Instances of Defense trump 30,000 real and documented American deaths every year.

Ok,then.

Yup. I sure do. Think about this; the shooter (whose name I refuse to learn or repeat) only shot himself because first responders were moving in. That tells me the shooter would have been content to continue the spree. If you count the 29 (I think that was where the count topped out) that were senselessly killed in this event, then we must also think about those who were spared when the shooter killed himself instead of continuing his rampage.
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N.U.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2012, 03:26:28 PM »

Additionally, the CDC lists the top 15 causes of death (in 2009) in the US as follows:
1. Diseases of heart (heart disease) - 599,413
2. Malignant neoplasms (cancer) - 567,628
3. Chronic lower respiratory diseases - 137,353
4. Cerebrovascular diseases (stroke) - 128,842
5. Accidents (unintentional injuries) - 118,021
6. Alzheimer’s disease - 79,003
7. Diabetes mellitus (diabetes) - 68,705
8. Influenza and pneumonia - 53,692
9. Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (kidney disease) - 48,935
10. Intentional self-harm (suicide) - 36,909
11. Septicemia
12. Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis
13. Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease (hypertension)
14. Parkinson’s disease
15. Assault (homicide)

Now, from this list (from the CDC), we can see there are a great many preventable causes of death that are much much greater than gun-related deaths. Suicide (#10) is a mental health issue. Chronic Liver disease is entirely avoidable in 99% of cases. High Blood Pressure (Hypertension/Hypertensive renal disease) is also entirely avoidable.

If we look to outlaw a tool who greatest place of use is homicide, why aren't we doing a thing about the 14 causes of death in front of it as well?
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Rose

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2012, 03:51:03 PM »

Things are being done about heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's, diabetes, etc.
Nearly every single disease, illness, or condition on that list is being studied and researched on some level.
Medical advances are being made. The pharmaceutical companies come out with new drugs on a semi-regular basis, and due to the research that's been published, it's become easier to treat some of these diseases and conditions on a preventative level (as well as catch them early). For many of the conditions, it's entirely feasible to treat them holistically and without medication, due to being able to catch them early on.
There are constant PSAs for some of them - awareness in the public is being raised, so that people will (theoretically) take better care of their bodies in the first place.

It's ridiculous to make sweeping statements such as "we aren't doing a thing" about them. That's an incredibly flawed statement and it makes your whole position look weak.
You just proved literally nothing.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2012, 04:12:56 PM »

@N.U
Aye whatever dude. I know a lot of mentally ill people who go off on one but can't cause this much death and misery.
no fucker can stand by the sale of automatic weapons to the public. Anyone wants to play Rambo go join the fucking Marines.
Children shot 11 times each with bullets altered to fragment after impact.
Automatic fire. no chance of rushing/disarming the prick.
Tired of hearing America's excuses for this shit happening every year.


This.

I personally like the idea (to some degree) of the compromise that allows paranoid citizens to keep their guns that take >10 bullets and take a while to manually fire for when they go hunting, or if someone breaks into their home or whatever, but bans automatic weapons that spray shit-tonnes of bullets per minute, and that have absolutely no legal, practical use among civilians.

Can anyone quote the bit of the second amendment about guns? I haven't read it and I'm internet lazy :P
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2012, 04:16:04 PM »

Here it is, in all of it's grammatical horridness

Quote
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So badly written that 200+ years later we are still debating what in the flying fuck they meant.
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N.U.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2012, 04:20:29 PM »

Things are being done about heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's, diabetes, etc.
Nearly every single disease, illness, or condition on that list is being studied and researched on some level.
Medical advances are being made. The pharmaceutical companies come out with new drugs on a semi-regular basis, and due to the research that's been published, it's become easier to treat some of these diseases and conditions on a preventative level (as well as catch them early). For many of the conditions, it's entirely feasible to treat them holistically and without medication, due to being able to catch them early on.
There are constant PSAs for some of them - awareness in the public is being raised, so that people will (theoretically) take better care of their bodies in the first place.

It's ridiculous to make sweeping statements such as "we aren't doing a thing" about them. That's an incredibly flawed statement and it makes your whole position look weak.
You just proved literally nothing.

Are they talking about completely banning High Fructose Corn Syrup from all foods in a manner similar to the large drink ban imposed in NYC? it would go a long way towards cutting down diabetes.
How about banning every food that is shown to lead directly to heart disease?
What about banning alcohol due to it's direct link to cirrhosis of the liver?

Oh... now it becomes clear. Prohibition doesn't work.
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Captain Oblivious

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2012, 04:26:22 PM »

"comparing gun homicides in the U.S. to England and Wales in one year: 9,146 to forty-one. Even taking into account the difference in population, the rates of gun homicide per a hundred thousand people are 2.97 versus .07"

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/12/guns-and-the-limits-of-shame.html

Also, comparing food to guns is flawed. We need food to live but the only purpose of guns is death.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2012, 04:31:25 PM »

target shooting. Hunting. Personal defense.

Also comparing anything in the US to the UK is fallacy. Just for starters, England has never had a culture where gun rights were supported in any official governmental way like the US. Second, the UK is an island nation, the US is not. It is much easier to keep prohibited items out of islands than one that shares borders. This is why Hawaii has such a great record with gun violence.
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Savannah

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2012, 04:32:05 PM »

Things are being done about heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's, diabetes, etc.
Nearly every single disease, illness, or condition on that list is being studied and researched on some level.
Medical advances are being made. The pharmaceutical companies come out with new drugs on a semi-regular basis, and due to the research that's been published, it's become easier to treat some of these diseases and conditions on a preventative level (as well as catch them early). For many of the conditions, it's entirely feasible to treat them holistically and without medication, due to being able to catch them early on.
There are constant PSAs for some of them - awareness in the public is being raised, so that people will (theoretically) take better care of their bodies in the first place.

It's ridiculous to make sweeping statements such as "we aren't doing a thing" about them. That's an incredibly flawed statement and it makes your whole position look weak.
You just proved literally nothing.

Are they talking about completely banning High Fructose Corn Syrup from all foods in a manner similar to the large drink ban imposed in NYC? it would go a long way towards cutting down diabetes.
How about banning every food that is shown to lead directly to heart disease?
What about banning alcohol due to it's direct link to cirrhosis of the liver?

Oh... now it becomes clear. Prohibition doesn't work.

It's such a bad example that i'd rather consider it as a nonsense excuse. I can't see ordinary people saying "free corn syrup! it's our right". It's just some inglorious food manufacturers who defend and consider it as a harmless material.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2012, 04:50:50 PM »

Things are being done about heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's, diabetes, etc.
Nearly every single disease, illness, or condition on that list is being studied and researched on some level.
Medical advances are being made. The pharmaceutical companies come out with new drugs on a semi-regular basis, and due to the research that's been published, it's become easier to treat some of these diseases and conditions on a preventative level (as well as catch them early). For many of the conditions, it's entirely feasible to treat them holistically and without medication, due to being able to catch them early on.
There are constant PSAs for some of them - awareness in the public is being raised, so that people will (theoretically) take better care of their bodies in the first place.

It's ridiculous to make sweeping statements such as "we aren't doing a thing" about them. That's an incredibly flawed statement and it makes your whole position look weak.
You just proved literally nothing.

Are they talking about completely banning High Fructose Corn Syrup from all foods in a manner similar to the large drink ban imposed in NYC? it would go a long way towards cutting down diabetes.
How about banning every food that is shown to lead directly to heart disease?
What about banning alcohol due to it's direct link to cirrhosis of the liver?

Oh... now it becomes clear. Prohibition doesn't work.

It's such a bad example that i'd rather consider it as a nonsense excuse. I can't see ordinary people saying "free corn syrup! it's our right". It's just some inglorious food manufacturers who defend and consider it as a harmless material.

Kind of like the NRA, eh?
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N.U.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2012, 04:55:24 PM »

How very fitting. From CNN's front page:

"NRA, in its first statement after the Newtown shootings, says it is prepared "to help make sure this never happens again" "

Sounds great, except they have guaranteed nothing.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2012, 04:59:10 PM »

Oh... now it becomes clear. Prohibition doesn't work.
It does when you apply it to assault weapons. Since we banned them we haven't had a single mass shooting.

http://sydney.edu.au/medicine/news/news/2006/Dec/061214.php
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2012, 05:12:06 PM »

Things are being done about heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's, diabetes, etc.
Nearly every single disease, illness, or condition on that list is being studied and researched on some level.
Medical advances are being made. The pharmaceutical companies come out with new drugs on a semi-regular basis, and due to the research that's been published, it's become easier to treat some of these diseases and conditions on a preventative level (as well as catch them early). For many of the conditions, it's entirely feasible to treat them holistically and without medication, due to being able to catch them early on.
There are constant PSAs for some of them - awareness in the public is being raised, so that people will (theoretically) take better care of their bodies in the first place.

It's ridiculous to make sweeping statements such as "we aren't doing a thing" about them. That's an incredibly flawed statement and it makes your whole position look weak.
You just proved literally nothing.

Are they talking about completely banning High Fructose Corn Syrup from all foods in a manner similar to the large drink ban imposed in NYC? it would go a long way towards cutting down diabetes.
How about banning every food that is shown to lead directly to heart disease?
What about banning alcohol due to it's direct link to cirrhosis of the liver?

Oh... now it becomes clear. Prohibition doesn't work.

It's such a bad example that i'd rather consider it as a nonsense excuse. I can't see ordinary people saying "free corn syrup! it's our right". It's just some inglorious food manufacturers who defend and consider it as a harmless material.

Kind of like the NRA, eh?

Yeah, i don't know a lot about the history or sutructure of this association. But let me go with your above arguement; do you really think International Association of Operative Millers (For grain, mostly wheat flour) would disapprove the harmful substances which are used during the production of flour? Nobody gives a damn about your opinion unless you are an association or a big company who pays a shit ton of taxes and contributes to balance of trade.

Unfortunately, most of the governments don't have the balls to let such organizations and companies down.


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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2012, 05:29:19 PM »

Things are being done about heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's, diabetes, etc.
Nearly every single disease, illness, or condition on that list is being studied and researched on some level.
Medical advances are being made. The pharmaceutical companies come out with new drugs on a semi-regular basis, and due to the research that's been published, it's become easier to treat some of these diseases and conditions on a preventative level (as well as catch them early). For many of the conditions, it's entirely feasible to treat them holistically and without medication, due to being able to catch them early on.
There are constant PSAs for some of them - awareness in the public is being raised, so that people will (theoretically) take better care of their bodies in the first place.

It's ridiculous to make sweeping statements such as "we aren't doing a thing" about them. That's an incredibly flawed statement and it makes your whole position look weak.
You just proved literally nothing.

Are they talking about completely banning High Fructose Corn Syrup from all foods in a manner similar to the large drink ban imposed in NYC? it would go a long way towards cutting down diabetes.
How about banning every food that is shown to lead directly to heart disease?
What about banning alcohol due to it's direct link to cirrhosis of the liver?

Oh... now it becomes clear. Prohibition doesn't work.

It's such a bad example that i'd rather consider it as a nonsense excuse. I can't see ordinary people saying "free corn syrup! it's our right". It's just some inglorious food manufacturers who defend and consider it as a harmless material.

Kind of like the NRA, eh?

Yeah, i don't know a lot about the history or sutructure of this association. But let me go with your above arguement; do you really think International Association of Operative Millers (For grain, mostly wheat flour) would disapprove the harmful substances which are used during the production of flour? Nobody gives a damn about your opinion unless you are an association or a big company who pays a shit ton of taxes and contributes to balance of trade.

Unfortunately, most of the governments don't have the balls to let such organizations and companies down.

The Corn lobby is every bit as powerful as the Gun lobby.
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JohnnyDBBUK

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2012, 05:30:43 PM »

Paranoid Americans clutching their weaponry instead of trusting their appointed officials to protect them.
I am writing this from Derry, N.Ireland where I know for a fact I am in a city with hundreds of illegal paramilitary weapons
no more than possibly 15minutes walk from my family home and guess what.
I sleep soundly. I sleep without the need for a glock on top of my copy of American Gods.

You are not Mad Max. You live in a sort of civilized society yet cling to the yeehaw gun toting days.
Fucking grow up. I am praying Obama continues to be a ballsy president and changes things for the better.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2012, 05:34:15 PM »

Oh... now it becomes clear. Prohibition doesn't work.
It does when you apply it to assault weapons. Since we banned them we haven't had a single mass shooting.

http://sydney.edu.au/medicine/news/news/2006/Dec/061214.php
Island nation:


NOT an island nation:


It is infinitely easier to keep things out of island countries than it is countries that share borders.

Additionally, it says here the Australian government destroyed approx. 700,000 guns. The only guns that get destrouyed here are:

1. Old Military weapons that have been phased out (I got to personally help destroy the Army's old M-16 A-1's in BASIC training)

2. Weapons confiscated during a drug raid.

3. Weapons involved in gun crime that are not required to be held in evidence.

Barring altering the 2nd Amendment (it could happen), Australia's policy could not work in the US.
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N.U.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2012, 05:35:34 PM »

Paranoid Americans clutching their weaponry instead of trusting their appointed officials to protect them.
I am writing this from Derry, N.Ireland where I know for a fact I am in a city with hundreds of illegal paramilitary weapons
no more than possibly 15minutes walk from my family home and guess what.
I sleep soundly. I sleep without the need for a glock on top of my copy of American Gods.

You are not Mad Max. You live in a sort of civilized society yet cling to the yeehaw gun toting days.
Fucking grow up. I am praying Obama continues to be a ballsy president and changes things for the better.

President Obama has a D- rating from the Brady institute because of his lack of supporting any gun control legislation at any elected position he has held.
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JohnnyDBBUK

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2012, 05:42:55 PM »

NU why do you love the guns so much? Why hold on so tightly to something that takes life?

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2012, 06:19:20 PM »

Paranoid Americans clutching their weaponry instead of trusting their appointed officials to protect them.
I am writing this from Derry, N.Ireland where I know for a fact I am in a city with hundreds of illegal paramilitary weapons
no more than possibly 15minutes walk from my family home and guess what.
I sleep soundly. I sleep without the need for a glock on top of my copy of American Gods.

You are not Mad Max. You live in a sort of civilized society yet cling to the yeehaw gun toting days.
Fucking grow up.
I am praying Obama continues to be a ballsy president and changes things for the better.
Ohmigod, exactly this. REALLY. PEOPLE. I was trying to have this conversation with my sister today. We do not live in a third world, or second world country. If we revolutionize, if we for some reason organize enough to "overthrow" the government it will not be the Arab Spring. It will not be such a violent revolution - it will be a pervasive, slow, and relatively legal one.
And we have a system of checks and balances. Our system is perpetually flawed, but it works to the point that the government is not going to come stomping into our homes, squishing us and our rights.
Anyone who calls me naive for believing this would be considered just as (crazyand)naive to believe that the government is going to suddenly start violently oppressing us, and that we will need to rise up against it or defend ourselves against it. Anyone who uses that as an excuse, and I've heard an abhorrent amount use it as one, is paranoid and borderline delusional.

And unless you live in the inner city, in an area where the crime rate is high, you do not need a gun for personal protection. Buy a taser if you're that scared and you live outside a dangerous area.
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Rose

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2012, 06:20:53 PM »

Paranoid Americans clutching their weaponry instead of trusting their appointed officials to protect them.
I am writing this from Derry, N.Ireland where I know for a fact I am in a city with hundreds of illegal paramilitary weapons
no more than possibly 15minutes walk from my family home and guess what.
I sleep soundly. I sleep without the need for a glock on top of my copy of American Gods.

You are not Mad Max. You live in a sort of civilized society yet cling to the yeehaw gun toting days.
Fucking grow up. I am praying Obama continues to be a ballsy president and changes things for the better.

President Obama has a D- rating from the Brady institute because of his lack of supporting any gun control legislation at any elected position he has held.
Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? I feel like you're trolling.
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N.U.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2012, 06:23:39 PM »

Here's the funny thing: I don't own one. However I have seen (and been quite close to) two major incidents of gun violence plus another personal one. The most recent was the Aurora theater shooting. The other one was Columbine, which rewrote the book in terms of media coverage and the way police deal with things like this.

The personal involved one was over Thanksgiving weekend, 1995. My best friend's mother invited me over for Thanksgiving, so I spent the weekend there. However, that Friday night, my best friend's mom's disgruntle ex0husband called and wanted to talk with my friend's Mom. Keep in mind that it's 10:30 at night and she was already in bed. I explained this and he hung up only to call back two minutes later doing the 8 year old "Can I PUH-LEEEEEEASE speak with (insert name here)?" to which I told him that as I was a guest there, it was not my place to wake her up. He tell me he's going to come over (at least a 30 minute drive) and that I wasn't going to stand in his way.

I proceed to call my friend (who was out with his then GF) and left a brief synopsis on his voicemail and for him to come home immediately.

It was me, alone in the country with a pistol and a sleeping mother in the next room.

I kept the pistol out of sight as I wanted to assess the situation. He came in with a baseball bat, had an obvious slur and seemed a little twitchy/amped up. Knowing this piece of work had a bad coke habit on top of being a drunk gave me all the info I needed. I decided that, as I view guns as always the weapon of absolute last resort, to take care of him personally.

With a baseball bat, the trick is to get right up into the bat-wielder's face before they can hit you with the bat. Inside of their arm's reach, the bat becomes completely ineffective. So I took me and the guy through the glass door to the porch and through the glass door to the yard. Doucheface went from being threatening with his baseball bat to trying to get me off of him. BFF's mom grabbed the bat and refused to let it go. It was then that I informed him that I was half his age, twice as angry, and could keep this up all night. The next move was his.

What he didn't know is I had already dialed 911 and hung up; something that brings about an instant visit from the sheriff. I was just trying to stall him.

His next move has saying he was going to leave. I moved form where I was back into the house and stood behind the table, where I had put the pistol. He demanded his bat from BFF's mom. She refused. I calmly told her to give it to him. I had him dead to rights. I decided quickly that if he raised his arm to attack anybody with that bat, I was going to shoot him. I knew if I ended up at that place where I had to pull the trigger this doucheface would be dead as I wasn't taught to shoot any other way by the military. Even the visiting sheriff asked why I didn't shoot the guy as I was well within my rights to do so. My only answer was, "Well, officer, I also went to war to heal people (I was a medic during Desert Shield/Storm), so any answer I give probably won't make sense to you."

I would say, Johnny, that I have way more respect for life than the average gun-rights supporter in that I don't think having a gun is always necessary, but I'm not so naive to think there will never be a situation where a gun doesn't become necessary.

I hope this makes a bit more sense as to why I have these strange ideas.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2012, 06:43:39 PM »

N.U, we are never going to agree. People should not be permitted to own the kinds of weapons that have been used in these incidents. Banning these weapons put a complete stop to mass shootings in my country and significantly lowered the rates of firearm related deaths overall.

Australia might be an island nation but plenty of contraband gets through our borders. We're not as isolated as you think. People here wouldn't have to try too hard to bring guns like that in but the vast majority of people here don't need a gun to feel safe/manly/tough/strong/macho.

Maybe because we know that our neighbours/coworkers/fellow students etc don't have them either.   

Hopefully this boy isn't the first of many.
11 year old boy brings a gun to school for "self defence".

http://www.9news.com/news/article/305688/188/Utah-boy-brings-gun-to-school-cites-Newtown-fears
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2012, 07:28:27 PM »

If you read the article (it's my hometown news in your link), you would have seen this little diddy:

"...School officials say the 11-year-old has been arrested on suspicion of possessing a dangerous weapon and aggravated assault after other students told police he pointed the handgun at them on a field at a suburban Salt Lake City elementary school..."

This was not a child in fear. This was a child without proper parenting in this instance.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2012, 08:29:44 PM »

The fact that he had access to a gun demonstrates poor parenting. It doesn't mean he wasn't afraid or a bit of a brat.
Quote
Authorities say a Utah sixth-grader caught with a gun at school told administrators he brought the weapon to defend himself in case of an attack similar to the mass shooting last week in Newtown, Conn.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2012, 08:51:26 PM »

Things are being done about heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's, diabetes, etc.
Nearly every single disease, illness, or condition on that list is being studied and researched on some level.
Medical advances are being made. The pharmaceutical companies come out with new drugs on a semi-regular basis, and due to the research that's been published, it's become easier to treat some of these diseases and conditions on a preventative level (as well as catch them early). For many of the conditions, it's entirely feasible to treat them holistically and without medication, due to being able to catch them early on.
There are constant PSAs for some of them - awareness in the public is being raised, so that people will (theoretically) take better care of their bodies in the first place.

It's ridiculous to make sweeping statements such as "we aren't doing a thing" about them. That's an incredibly flawed statement and it makes your whole position look weak.
You just proved literally nothing.

Are they talking about completely banning High Fructose Corn Syrup from all foods in a manner similar to the large drink ban imposed in NYC? it would go a long way towards cutting down diabetes.
How about banning every food that is shown to lead directly to heart disease?
What about banning alcohol due to it's direct link to cirrhosis of the liver?

Oh... now it becomes clear. Prohibition doesn't work.

the other things are definitely problems, too. but only because other problems exist as well, it doesen't mean dealing with one of them is bad.
also, with most of the food stuff it is your own responsibility and brings harm to yourself (like excess drinking), but not to others. (at least not physically...)
If you go to school and someone else uses a gun it might very well affect many other innocent people.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2012, 09:02:34 PM »




" Meet one of America's youngest gun victims -- shot in the womb. Tonight, we ask trauma surgeons how they'd quell gun violence."

Photo Credit: Seni Tienabeso



Shot in the WOMB

For me, this is enough reasons to have things change.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2012, 03:29:21 AM »

@NU: I see your point, what you've experienced that night is not easy to forget. Anyway that guy might have been the one who held the gun, what would you then? He too had a right to bear one.

The victims of this mass shooting haven't been shot by a hitman or gangster, the murderer was just an ordinary person with some menthal/etchical issues. Now you think banning won't stop the criminal people, but at least it will stop the ordinary people with such issues you'll never notice until they go into action and attack innocent people.

And i really don't understand why most US people still feel insecure. For god's sake, any kind of emergency service is just a phone call away from you. And the terrorist attacks are quite fewer in quantity when compared to the middle eastern countries.Besides you are not being governed by a blood-shedder dictator. US doesn't even get involved in a war unless it's in some other country, so you are not likely to defend yourself againist the armies or raiders. If all you are afraid of is just some intruders and criminals, well here's the news: bearing a gun will never guarantee your safety.

Seriously, i understand the paranoia with the Jewish people, they've been exiled and killed severely over the centuries, i understand the paranoia with African & Middle Eastern people as most of them have never been governed by a consistent and trustworthy system or people. These people have always had to witness & engage to wars.

But what's the reason most people in the US are so passive-aggressive about everything?
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2012, 04:10:04 AM »

From the sound of things you managed to incapacitate that guy without deadly force NU
Bruce Lee never needed a gun
Batman never needed a gun
and that night neither did you.
I know three ways to disarm a guy with a baseballbat that do not require a gun.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2012, 01:39:33 PM »

@NU: I see your point, what you've experienced that night is not easy to forget. Anyway that guy might have been the one who held the gun, what would you then? He too had a right to bear one.

The victims of this mass shooting haven't been shot by a hitman or gangster, the murderer was just an ordinary person with some menthal/etchical issues. Now you think banning won't stop the criminal people, but at least it will stop the ordinary people with such issues you'll never notice until they go into action and attack innocent people.

And i really don't understand why most US people still feel insecure. For god's sake, any kind of emergency service is just a phone call away from you. And the terrorist attacks are quite fewer in quantity when compared to the middle eastern countries.Besides you are not being governed by a blood-shedder dictator. US doesn't even get involved in a war unless it's in some other country, so you are not likely to defend yourself againist the armies or raiders. If all you are afraid of is just some intruders and criminals, well here's the news: bearing a gun will never guarantee your safety.

Seriously, i understand the paranoia with the Jewish people, they've been exiled and killed severely over the centuries, i understand the paranoia with African & Middle Eastern people as most of them have never been governed by a consistent and trustworthy system or people. These people have always had to witness & engage to wars.

But what's the reason most people in the US are so passive-aggressive about everything?
I don't like scapegoating or overly vilifying anyone or anything, and the media has been taking a lot of flack lately. Also, when I (or anyone else) refer to it as "the media" it sounds like this huge shadow corporation out to get us (and I don't really believe that). Buuut.. that aside.. I do believe a large part of the reason we live in such fear is the way we get our news.
It is a depressing fact that even the local news usually shows stories of violence or distress before any other stories. It's what sells. But they sensationalize it. For people who keep up on the news, local or national, it begins to seem like these things happen on large scale. They happen on a regular basis, but statistically, you're pretty unlikely to deal with a violent situation unless you live in a dangerous area or you're engaging in at risk behavior (including hanging around with dangerous/unstable people, like drug addicts).
But, since our news sources are almost completely negative, it can be very difficult to not believe we live in an incredibly dangerous and terrifying country. The only times I've ever felt unsafe are when I've been in situations where I know I'm unsafe - but a lot of people, I think, can't really tell the difference anymore. Everything has become blurred, and everything has become scary. I've got a friend who's a black belt in martial arts (I can't remember which type), and he's paranoid and nervous even in safe areas if we're out after dark. Even if it's not late at night. It's one thing to be aware of the area around you, but you shouldn't have to be scared. It sucks.
The media starts this and feeds this, and then everyone who is scared feeds it and breeds it within the community, and it snowballs. It becomes very easy to demonize anything that might be dangerous, because we're all fucking terrified all the time. It gets out of control very easily. People get angry. Lines are drawn. Nearly everyone is living in fear and wanting a solution but no one will agree on what the solution can be and not enough people are being rational. It's such a clusterfuck.
But yeah. I think the media is a huge instigator and contributor. People are plugged into it in an alarming way. It's very difficult to be secure when the people you trust to tell you what's going on in the country (and you do trust them on some level, because otherwise you wouldn't be watching) make it sound like the edge of the apocalypse.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2012, 03:03:41 PM »

For the record I do not own a gun. My husband owns one for duck hunting & it is not kept in our home because I will not allow it without a gun safe.

And i really don't understand why most US people still feel insecure. For god's sake, any kind of emergency service is just a phone call away from you.

The victims of this mass shooting haven't been shot by a hitman or gangster, the murderer was just an ordinary person with some menthal/etchical issues.

This is what makes me feel insecure.

People kill other people. People, for whatever reason, chose to go to public places and kill other human beings with lives and families and futures. People that they don't know. People that they have never even met. People that they have no reason (as if there were an appropriate reason) to kill. There is nothing that anyone can do about a life that has already been taken so emergency service is only a small comfort.



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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2012, 03:55:54 PM »

Folks from other countries don't understand US culture. In American culture on the whole, the gun is absolutely as much a part of our republic as is speaking your mind. It was so important to us that right after guaranteeing freedom of speech, the press, and religion came the right to bear arms.

Does this mean nothing should change? Heavens no. It absolutely has to change, but a ban will not happen in this country. There would be open revolution in some parts of the country. That's not a fear tactic. That's a fact. I would like to see at least some of what I would like implemented. I won't hold my breath, though.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2012, 04:43:26 PM »

For the record I do not own a gun. My husband owns one for duck hunting & it is not kept in our home because I will not allow it without a gun safe.

And i really don't understand why most US people still feel insecure. For god's sake, any kind of emergency service is just a phone call away from you.

The victims of this mass shooting haven't been shot by a hitman or gangster, the murderer was just an ordinary person with some menthal/etchical issues.

This is what makes me feel insecure.

People kill other people. People, for whatever reason, chose to go to public places and kill other human beings with lives and families and futures. People that they don't know. People that they have never even met. People that they have no reason (as if there were an appropriate reason) to kill. There is nothing that anyone can do about a life that has already been taken so emergency service is only a small comfort.

I see, but i guess the true answer to that question was given in Marionette's post above.

When i said emergency services i didn't just imply the ones that give health services, i was talking about the whole public services such as the policemen, firefighters, search & rescue teams, ambulances, etc.

I know it's a race against time in such cases, you can find the time to do something or get quickly hunt down. There are lots of possibilities.

People killing people makes me feel insecure too, but i have never thought about getting a gun or a knife. Instead i used to keep a tear gas spray in my bag when i was in the university. But not sure if it's a solution too. Anyway i don't find it reasonable to get that much scared and paranoid and bear a gun. It is too much.

A couple of years ago my uncle shot his very best friend during a bar fight. He was just trying to scare some other guy away, but his friend had thought he'd shoot the guy and tried to stop him. Both were as drunk as a sow, and it ended with uncle shooting his best friend on his abdomen (luckily he survived and uncle got released after a couple of months).
Anyway if you ask my uncle why he keeps the gun, he'll probably say 'to defend myself'. Defend yourself from what for the f's sake, from yourself?
As i said before, we're not robots. It's not that hard to lose the temper and cause such a horrible accident.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2012, 04:53:56 PM »

I didn't mean that those were reasons/excuses to carry a gun. I was saying that is why I personally feel insecure about life right now.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #76 on: December 19, 2012, 06:00:32 PM »

I think we can all agree that doing nothing can't be viewed as anything but criminal negligence at this point. However, this is a conversation that must take place slowly and methodically, else we run the risk of unintended consequences like the PATRIOT Act. I don't know what the best answer is, but a good first step would be to limit magazine capacity. What I propose, though, is a plastic "breakaway limiter" on all magazines over the set size in a proposed AWB, be it 15 or 20 rounds. That way, you can load a high capacity magazine to it's limit, but you have to break off the limiter in order to do so. If you make it illegal to own a high capacity magazine without a "breakaway limiter", you can avoid the issue that occurred the last time an AWB was put into place; the high capacity magazines became literally worth their weight in gold.

This "breakway limiter" could also only be replaced at a licensed gunsmith for a fee, and all such replacements must be reported to the BATF.

I would require ALL sales, business or private, of guns to be reported through the BATF. That takes care of the end-around used by most folks who aren't allowed to buy guns to buy guns. It also hits home the point that there is a responsibility on behalf of all gun owners to make certain guns aren't getting into the wrong hands with any amount of ease.

Additionally, I'd require gun safety courses to be taught before any license to carry (open or concealed) is granted. I'd also leave open the option for the gun safety instructor to recommend a mental eval for licensure if they don't feel right about it.

These are not the entirety of my wishes, but maybe a great place to start a conversation.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #77 on: December 19, 2012, 06:28:12 PM »

^I like those ideas. They are very much so within reason. But how the hell would you get them implemented?
My older sister has begun to parrot the things that her paranoid soon-to-be-fiance says. We were talking on the phone, and I mentioned making all sales of guns have to be reported, and she goes "Well, that would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? If the government knows where the guns are, how are you supposed to protect yourself from the government?"
She didn't say it that stupidly. But it was close, and I know her paranoid soon-to-be-fiance is hardly alone in these beliefs. How do you get perfectly reasonable regulations such as that passed when there are large amounts of people being perfectly unreasonable? When there are large amounts of people who will start losing it at the mention of any more regulations?
Not to mention, our congress/senate couldn't work together to literally save the country's life - I don't see how they could work together to pass any new gun control regulations.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #78 on: December 19, 2012, 08:05:23 PM »

This has been a hard week to be working as a teacher.

I haven't really taken the time to process it, beyond gun control debates on Facebook, but then Cheddar's Cousin's post majorly pissed me off in the poems thread, and I needed to think about why (it wasn't a particularly good poem). 

A friend of mine wrote, on Monday, "This has been the first time that we've met in school since the shooting.  And in a lot of ways, it was harder than Friday."

I get that.  The questions I fielded on Monday, from grave looking 11 year olds (Why?  Could it happen here?  I would protect my friends!), were hard.  The moment of silence in our community assembly was hard.

The looking around my classroom, imagining where I would hide 27 6th graders (there is no place, no closet) and which beaker would I throw first.

The thinking about how my stupid woman pants didn't have a useful pocket where I could keep my keys in case I needed to lock my door.

Reviewing procedures with my principals.

Talking my parents down from being worried that someone could come up through the elevator.

Coming (and still) pretty damn close to breaking a very good friendship with a co-worker because she said, "You know they say things about gun control but then that other guy said, you know they took god from schools, and this is what happens... it made me think, you have to get to the source."

President Obama talked about parenting a child being like having your heart outside of your body.  I'm not a parent, but I'm entrusted with 81 hearts a day.  I fix ties and collars, I call home about the kid who hasn't eaten, I make sure that the kid who has nightmares about the apocalypse stops having them, I run after kids when they forget hats, I know about Facebook statuses, I give money to the kid whose family can't pay the electricity bill, I wipe up tears, and blood, once.

And you know, these kids don't go to a suburban Connecticut town's school (like the one I grew up in).  They are from the areas that I don't walk alone in night, and where I had pictures of pop stars on my binder in middle school, they have way too many pictures of cousins and sisters and brothers who were killed by gang violence.  Some of them are so anxious about gang retaliation that they don't sleep.  Once, when we went on the bus to a field trip, a girl showed me where she lived and the three places down the street where they had been shootings.  "I walk from the bus stop right there," she said.  There is a girl in my school who is a wheelchair because a stray bullet hit her when she was 4.

So really, I'm pro gun control but I'm also pro figuring out a way to get illegal guns off the street, because 100s of more of these deaths happen off our national news, and they destroy lives just the same.

And yet, I've been hit hard this week, thinking about the What ifs, and the Who Were They, and How Can I Help.

And I became a teacher to change lives, to get my kiddos from being 3 years below reading level to college, to get them off this cycle of violence and poverty and hurt, but goddamnit I will not learn how to shoot a gun.

And really, what I should be worried about this week is how to teach the rock cycle.

Thank goodness break is coming.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #79 on: December 19, 2012, 08:23:38 PM »

Good goin' Musings.  I hope your class' parents appreciate you.



I try very hard to avoid this whole topic, as I have little to add that someone else hasn't
already said, but I have a few observations on recent posts:

- The most recent school mass-murderer's MOM passed a whole pack of qualifications
  to acquire and keep semi-automatic weapons in a jurisdiction with relatively-stringent
  gun-control laws.  The shooter never bought or licensed a gun or ammunition.

- N.U. successfully thwarted an intoxicated aggressor armed with a baseball bat. He had no way
  of knowing in advance whether the man would be armed, or with what sort of weapon, but he
  was forewarned that the man was coming, and likely to be criminally hostile.

- ...and yeah, the whole bit that somehow having a gun or twenty in your house is going to
  protect you from some sort of vaguely-defined notion of "government oppression" just lets
  people know you don't do too much of your own thinking.  If you feel the need for more than
  sufficient-firepower-to-defend-yourself-until-the-cops-show-up, you're may just possibly
  be setting yourself up for a bad end.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #80 on: December 19, 2012, 09:47:49 PM »

NU - I appreciate what you did for your friend's mother and it was very admirable, but the fact that both of you could legally and quite probably own a gun is the worrying part. You wouldn't have needed a gun just-in-case if they weren't so readily available.
Also, you say that gun culture is so central to American culture. Perhaps that's another part of this massive problem. Stop romanticising guns and celebrating them, stop telling children they're fine, stop leaving them lying about the house. I know that not everyone does it but it's more common than it should be and for those children/adults who are disgruntled or simply just mentally ill it will become much more difficult to wreak the kind of havoc that has been happening.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #81 on: December 20, 2012, 07:01:59 AM »

Stuff Nation is usually bullshit but this article makes a fair point:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/8100209/Sandy-Hook-happens-every-day
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #83 on: December 20, 2012, 09:09:36 AM »

/facepalm

GDI, Right-wingers, are teachers overpaid layabouts who are lucky they get paid at all (when education budgets are discussed) or are they also expected to, in addition to teaching, babysitting, helping, encouraging, and going home to prepare for it all again also expected to take on the responsibilities of: Law enforcement, security, and special ops as well (When guns in schools get mentioned)?

Seriously?
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2012, 09:32:41 AM »

When the response to a tragedy like this (and so many others) is not to significantly reduce the availability of weapons, surely there's something wrong?
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2012, 09:53:56 AM »

Colorado, since Columbine, has had dedicated police officers in their schools (usually 1 per school). It's has been extremely effective at curbing violence in general at schools.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #86 on: December 20, 2012, 11:27:28 AM »

Colorado, since Columbine, has had dedicated police officers in their schools (usually 1 per school). It's has been extremely effective at curbing violence in general at schools.

That has nothing to do with weapons, though good effort on their part.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #87 on: December 20, 2012, 12:26:34 PM »

The fact is, the visibility of an armed officer reduces the gun violence in schools drastically.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #88 on: December 20, 2012, 04:15:30 PM »

The fact is, the visibility of an armed officer reduces the gun violence in schools drastically.

Surely a lack of availability of guns would reduce the gun violence drastically?
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2012, 04:20:27 PM »

Surely. Less access, by it's very definition, means less people able to demonstrate their constitutionally-guaranteed right.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2012, 06:26:47 PM »

Surely. Less access, by it's very definition, means less people able to demonstrate their constitutionally-guaranteed right.

A 400-year-old law, when loading a gun took 10 minutes and the nation was really new and they could have no idea of the effect this right would have. I obviously don't know any of the people alive at that time but I can only imagine that they would be horrified at the violence their law has allowed to happen.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2012, 08:50:58 PM »

So because of Newtown, we put armed police officers in every school.

Because of Aurora, we put armed police officers in every movie theater.

Because of Oregon, we vastly increase the powers of mall security, give them guns if they don't have it.

Because of Arizona, we put armed police officers in public spaces, like grocery stores, bars.

I once went to a country like that. It was in a civil war at the time.

Also, putting a cop in every school increases the chances that there will be some trigger happy guy who will accidentally shoot up someone.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #92 on: December 21, 2012, 05:46:45 AM »

Cops in movie theatres now? Serious?

Also,
http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8583693/girl-threatens-to-blow-up-school
Quote from: article
The teen's parents said that their daughter had been seen by psychiatrist "and had recently been inquiring about where the guns were being kept in the house. The father said he was alarmed by his daughter's comments and took the additional safety precautions of placing trigger locks on each gun and safeguarding them in a gun safe."
Nice.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2012, 08:56:31 AM »

Cops in movie theatres now? Serious?

Also,
http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8583693/girl-threatens-to-blow-up-school
Quote from: article
The teen's parents said that their daughter had been seen by psychiatrist "and had recently been inquiring about where the guns were being kept in the house. The father said he was alarmed by his daughter's comments and took the additional safety precautions of placing trigger locks on each gun and safeguarding them in a gun safe."
Nice.

That's called "being a responsible gun owner"
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2012, 11:09:36 AM »

I know I keep posting links, but this is an interesting perspective (even if 99% of this sites content is bullshit)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/life/8108530/Guns-get-men-pushing-back

Case of Fight Club syndrome?
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #95 on: December 21, 2012, 12:02:08 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2012, 12:54:42 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."

While the NRA were calling for more guns, someone was shooting up the place in Pennsylvania. 7 dead, including state troopers. More guns is exactly what America doesn't need.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #97 on: December 21, 2012, 01:33:31 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."

While the NRA were calling for more guns, someone was shooting up the place in Pennsylvania. 7 dead, including state troopers. More guns is exactly what America doesn't need.

The interwebs say it is 4 dead (including the shooter) and 3 state police were injured
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #98 on: December 21, 2012, 01:34:30 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."
Fuck going to school in that environment. Being constantly monitored is probably going to make reactionary teenagers who feel like they're under suspicion of something more likely to snap, if anything.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #99 on: December 21, 2012, 01:43:41 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."
Fuck going to school in that environment. Being constantly monitored is probably going to make reactionary teenagers who feel like they're under suspicion of something more likely to snap, if anything.

We actually had a campus cop at my high school and it wasn't so bad. The guy was kind of a douche but it wasn't like intimidating or weird to have him around.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #100 on: December 21, 2012, 01:45:16 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."
Fuck going to school in that environment. Being constantly monitored is probably going to make reactionary teenagers who feel like they're under suspicion of something more likely to snap, if anything.

Yet, the constant monitoring of an entire nation won't have a similar effect?
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #101 on: December 21, 2012, 02:20:00 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."
Fuck going to school in that environment. Being constantly monitored is probably going to make reactionary teenagers who feel like they're under suspicion of something more likely to snap, if anything.

Yet, the constant monitoring of an entire nation won't have a similar effect?

We're constantly monitored anyway, just not with guns. Name one person you know who's never had a speeding ticket or a parking ticket.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #102 on: December 21, 2012, 02:31:49 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."
Fuck going to school in that environment. Being constantly monitored is probably going to make reactionary teenagers who feel like they're under suspicion of something more likely to snap, if anything.

It's been this way since Columbine in Colorado.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #103 on: December 21, 2012, 02:32:54 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."
Fuck going to school in that environment. Being constantly monitored is probably going to make reactionary teenagers who feel like they're under suspicion of something more likely to snap, if anything.

Yet, the constant monitoring of an entire nation won't have a similar effect?

We're constantly monitored anyway, just not with guns. Name one person you know who's never had a speeding ticket or a parking ticket.

me
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #104 on: December 21, 2012, 02:34:25 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."
Fuck going to school in that environment. Being constantly monitored is probably going to make reactionary teenagers who feel like they're under suspicion of something more likely to snap, if anything.

Yet, the constant monitoring of an entire nation won't have a similar effect?

We're constantly monitored anyway, just not with guns. Name one person you know who's never had a speeding ticket or a parking ticket.

me

It doesn't matter whether you are amazingly awesome like that or not. The mob has spoken that your rights as a law-abiding citizen don't matter; you'll be monitored anyway.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #105 on: December 21, 2012, 03:21:54 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."
Fuck going to school in that environment. Being constantly monitored is probably going to make reactionary teenagers who feel like they're under suspicion of something more likely to snap, if anything.

We actually had a campus cop at my high school and it wasn't so bad. The guy was kind of a douche but it wasn't like intimidating or weird to have him around.
They would occasionally have cops come through with dogs at my old school (this happened like once a year) if people were suspected of having drugs of some kind, but that seemed less aggressive than an armed cop waiting in the wings, for some reason. I guess because no one cared about drugs, whereas the armed school cop is also a reminder that things like Columbine and Sandy Hook can happen at any time.

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."
Fuck going to school in that environment. Being constantly monitored is probably going to make reactionary teenagers who feel like they're under suspicion of something more likely to snap, if anything.

Yet, the constant monitoring of an entire nation won't have a similar effect?
In what sense?
If you mean how we're monitored currently, I think it's less aggressive, although that may just be where I live, since even the cops that walk around town on friday and saturday nights don't often carry guns, and their main purpose is to help drunk people find their way home or occasionally break up mostly benign drunken fist fights/arguments.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #106 on: December 21, 2012, 03:25:14 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."
Fuck going to school in that environment. Being constantly monitored is probably going to make reactionary teenagers who feel like they're under suspicion of something more likely to snap, if anything.

Yet, the constant monitoring of an entire nation won't have a similar effect?

We're constantly monitored anyway, just not with guns. Name one person you know who's never had a speeding ticket or a parking ticket.

me

It doesn't matter whether you are amazingly awesome like that or not. The mob has spoken that your rights as a law-abiding citizen don't matter; you'll be monitored anyway.

There's no point trying to state you're not being monitored cos you are. Every time you walk down the road or go into a shop, you're being monitored.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #108 on: December 21, 2012, 07:08:15 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-calls-armed-police-officer-every-school-162851713.html

Quote
The nation's largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer "waiting in the wings."
Fuck going to school in that environment. Being constantly monitored is probably going to make reactionary teenagers who feel like they're under suspicion of something more likely to snap, if anything.

Yet, the constant monitoring of an entire nation won't have a similar effect?

We're constantly monitored anyway, just not with guns. Name one person you know who's never had a speeding ticket or a parking ticket.

me

It doesn't matter whether you are amazingly awesome like that or not. The mob has spoken that your rights as a law-abiding citizen don't matter; you'll be monitored anyway.

There's no point trying to state you're not being monitored cos you are. Every time you walk down the road or go into a shop, you're being monitored.
Aye. Every time you use a bank card to pay for something, catch the bus, enter most public buildings...sometimes I wonder how far off a 1984 type of situation is.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #109 on: December 21, 2012, 07:46:12 PM »

I was just saying that I haven't gotten tickets not that I'm not monitored. I'm also not arguing against some sort of gun control. I don't think that the solution is to take away all privately owned guns. I'm pretty sure that would be impossible.. and a little ridiculous.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #110 on: December 21, 2012, 07:56:22 PM »

I was just saying that I haven't gotten tickets not that I'm not monitored. I'm also not arguing against some sort of gun control. I don't think that the solution is to take away all privately owned guns. I'm pretty sure that would be impossible.. and a little ridiculous.

why would it be ridiculous? It's privately owned guns that are being used to do these awful things.
If I thought that people would be responsible and keep guns away from children and the mentally ill then I would have absolutely no problem with guns but as NU said they're such an integral part of life that no one thinks much of them and the vast majority of people have no idea just how easy it is to kill something or someone when you have a gun and that's not even limited to when there's an actual intention.

Taking guns away is probably going to be the most effective and quickest way to solve this problem. Perhaps in the long term, you could introduce training programmes and much stricter controls but that's not going to happen overnight and in the meantime, surely it's better if people don't die.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #111 on: December 21, 2012, 08:32:27 PM »

I was just saying that I haven't gotten tickets not that I'm not monitored. I'm also not arguing against some sort of gun control. I don't think that the solution is to take away all privately owned guns. I'm pretty sure that would be impossible.. and a little ridiculous.

why would it be ridiculous? It's privately owned guns that are being used to do these awful things.
If I thought that people would be responsible and keep guns away from children and the mentally ill then I would have absolutely no problem with guns but as NU said they're such an integral part of life that no one thinks much of them and the vast majority of people have no idea just how easy it is to kill something or someone when you have a gun and that's not even limited to when there's an actual intention.

Taking guns away is probably going to be the most effective and quickest way to solve this problem. Perhaps in the long term, you could introduce training programmes and much stricter controls but that's not going to happen overnight and in the meantime, surely it's better if people don't die.

Taking people's guns away in America would not be quick or efficient. Guns are an integral part of people's lives in America. It might seem like I am being obstinate, but I'm really not trying to be. It is hard to explain how important guns are here. In America it is our "right" to carry/own/possess firearms. To say that we no longer have that right would outrage people even people who don't own guns. If they can take away our right to bare arms... what other rights can they take away? I don't mean to be argumentative I am just trying to explain that even though it sounds logical that the government should just do away with all privately owned guns it is not that simple. In this situation it would be seen as punishing the many for the crimes of the few.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #112 on: December 21, 2012, 08:49:58 PM »

So, I'd like to point out that I had an armed police officer in my middle school and my high school. Both of my high schools. Probably my elementary school too, since I'm young enough. Columbine happened when I was in 3rd grade... I imagine I might have had a police officer for my last couple of years, I can't remember though. I live in Colorado. I never found it aggressive, or strange, or bothersome. They didn't piss me off any more than the other authority figures did. They were very useful, some of the time, and the rest of the time they were just in the background.
I honestly thought that everyone had armed police officers at their schools, and I can't see any reason why there shouldn't be one.
I'm not sure it would do a lot of good.. but I really don't believe anyone would care, and I can't see it doing any damage.

@The whole banning guns thing; Banning guns in america is really not a feasible solution. It's one of the few things I can think of that generally apathetic americans would get upset about enough to rebel against. If the issue was pressed, we would have riots. Armed riots. We are, unfortunately, a gun culture. We need a lot more gun control, but it's a pipe dream to imagine getting rid of them entirely.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #113 on: December 21, 2012, 08:53:34 PM »

The right to bear arms isn't really the same as the right to free speech, or the right to healthcare (which incidentally is not a right you have, as far as I can tell). It's the right to bear dangerous weapons whose only function is to kill or maim. I get that personal safety and protection is one argument for them but if the other person did not have a gun then you would not need one either.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #114 on: December 21, 2012, 09:12:46 PM »

The right to bear arms isn't really the same as the right to free speech, or the right to healthcare (which incidentally is not a right you have, as far as I can tell).

But to American's ... at least many American's it is the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #115 on: December 21, 2012, 09:30:50 PM »

The right to bear arms isn't really the same as the right to free speech, or the right to healthcare (which incidentally is not a right you have, as far as I can tell).

But to American's ... at least many American's it is the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution

As (I think) Hugo pointed out earlier, the 18th Amendment was repealed. Why not the 2nd?
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #116 on: December 21, 2012, 09:48:19 PM »

The 18th amendment was prohibition... by repealing it the government made it legal for us to alcohol. The didn't take any "right" away they just said "cool, drink beer."
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #117 on: December 21, 2012, 09:59:22 PM »

The 18th amendment was prohibition... by repealing it the government made it legal for us to alcohol. The didn't take any "right" away they just said "cool, drink beer."

Ok well I see your point. But as I mentioned before, you make it easier for people to kill others than to get medical help. Surely that's when you know there's something wrong with the system?
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #118 on: December 22, 2012, 01:36:07 AM »

The 18th amendment was prohibition... by repealing it the government made it legal for us to alcohol. The didn't take any "right" away they just said "cool, drink beer."

Actually, the 18th Amendment did "take away a right," if you want to call alcohol consumption a right.

Captain:  gun control is impossible until it's not. It was once impossible for women to vote, too.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #119 on: December 22, 2012, 08:44:54 AM »

The 18th amendment was prohibition... by repealing it the government made it legal for us to alcohol. The didn't take any "right" away they just said "cool, drink beer."

Actually, the 18th Amendment did "take away a right," if you want to call alcohol consumption a right.

Captain:  gun control is impossible until it's not. It was once impossible for women to vote, too.

Yes, exactly.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #120 on: December 22, 2012, 09:46:48 AM »

The 18th amendment was prohibition... by repealing it the government made it legal for us to alcohol. The didn't take any "right" away they just said "cool, drink beer."

Actually, the 18th Amendment did "take away a right," if you want to call alcohol consumption a right.

Captain:  gun control is impossible until it's not. It was once impossible for women to vote, too.

I didn't say the 18th amendment didn't take away a right. I said that repealing the 18th amendment didn't.

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #121 on: December 22, 2012, 12:19:23 PM »

The right to bear arms isn't really the same as the right to free speech, or the right to healthcare (which incidentally is not a right you have, as far as I can tell).
That's what I find really disturbing - is it right when you can't afford a psychiatrist but you can afford a semi-automatic gun?
It's hard to imagine for me since I live in Czech Rep. and I can't own a gun because I wear glasses.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #122 on: December 22, 2012, 03:09:34 PM »

What the NRA and some people in this debate conveniently forget is that Columbine had an armed guard and security cameras at the time of the shooting: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/columbine-armed-guards_n_2347096.html

VA Tech had its own police force. 

This guy at Newtown had 10 minutes to do his damage.  That's it.  Even the best armed official would have had difficulty, given the element of surprise and needing to be in the right part of the building, a bulletproof vest, and a high speed weapon.  Which begs the question - should our schools be protected not by a single officer, but by armies?

As a teacher, I say fuck no to both options.

Get high speed weapons out of civilians' hands.  That's the baseline.  Require that all guns be locked at all times, with random checks.  Limit bullet sales, and don't sell bulletproof vests.  Require schools to conduct mental health assessments of every kid and give them funding to provide professional mental health services/support to at risk youth.  Sounds big brother-ish, but where I come from, I see parents who can't take care of perfectly healthy children, never mind a kid is about to snap.  Make it damn near impossible for a kid under the age of 13 to see a violent movie or play a violent video game (studies have repeatedly shown that exposure to
violence at an early age increase aggressive behavior, especially among kids with depression and antisocial tendencies).

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #124 on: December 25, 2012, 02:35:03 PM »

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/

This is an article written by a novelist and I implore all of you to at least read it, whether you agree with it or not.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #125 on: December 25, 2012, 03:21:04 PM »

that link led to a "not found" message for me.   :-\

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #126 on: December 25, 2012, 03:24:06 PM »

that link led to a "not found" message for me.   :-\
Me too, but when I clicked the home button, it came right up.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #127 on: December 26, 2012, 02:13:26 PM »

I fixed the link. It should work now.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #128 on: January 06, 2013, 03:51:46 PM »

Biden's proposals seem totally reasonable to me. Thoughts?
http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8589466/us-considers-broad-gun-sales-restrictions
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #129 on: January 06, 2013, 07:53:31 PM »

Those are basically what I've heard reasonable supporters of gun control pushing for (the unreasonable ones, like my Dad's wife, want all guns banned even though they know it's not possible).
I think they sound great, and I hope that the majority of those regulations can be passed in a timely manner without too many qualifications or loopholes for escape.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #130 on: January 08, 2013, 12:41:30 PM »

Sensible except there is no way to differentiate between an assault weapon (which is a press invention) and any other run-of-the-mill gas-operated semi-automatic rifle.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #131 on: January 08, 2013, 02:45:30 PM »

If there's no way to differentiate then how did we manage to accomplish a ban on them before?
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #132 on: January 08, 2013, 04:51:14 PM »

If there's no way to differentiate then how did we manage to accomplish a ban on them before?

read the article I posted and it will explain way better than I ever could, but here is the nutshell list from wiki:


    Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

        Folding or telescoping stock - has no effect on how the weapon fires.
        Pistol grip - again, no impact on how the weapon functions.
        Bayonet mount - who cares? If there's not an actual bayonet on the front, which would be obvious to everybody, where's the concern?
        Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one - A flash suppressor isn't a silencer, nor does it make the flash disappear. The proper term of these are flash diverters. It just cuts down on the vision impacts from firing the weapon, but the flash is still viewable, plain as day.
        Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device that enables launching or firing rifle grenades, though this applies only to muzzle mounted grenade launchers and not those mounted externally). - This is the only one of these that remotely addresses the issue I have with civilian versions of mil-spec rifles.

Basically the list is all things that make a rifle look evil. Well we pay as well ban devil horns on your rifle, as well, as much as it helps the function of the rifle itself.

A friend of mine had an AK-47 converted to semi-auto that did not fall under the old assault weapons ban simply because he changed the stock to a "Sport Hunting" stock. Was it any less deadly? Hells no. If anything, it was more deadly because it was more comfortable to fire.


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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #133 on: January 08, 2013, 11:27:31 PM »

Also an important fact to realize is that rifles of any kind are statistically as likely to be used in homicides as knives over the last 30 or so years in the U.S.  While "assault" rifles make a very scarey enemy for the gun control advocates, hand guns are used in over 3/4 of fire arms related homicides.  I might add that it is already illegal for a vast majority of the assailants to possess and/or concealed carry these weapons.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #134 on: January 08, 2013, 11:53:04 PM »

....scarey...
The heart of the Assault Weapons Ban - Does it LOOK like a big scary military machine gun?
It really is a meaningful definition.......  about as useful as banning black overalls and those
"tactical vests" that look like body armour but they're really just black fishing vests.

I mean, yeah, guys who are planning to shoot up a theatre/mall/school/etc do have a nasty
habit of dressing up in clothes that they think make them look tough, so lets ban that stuff.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #135 on: January 15, 2013, 12:02:37 AM »

This is heading in the right direction
Quote
New York Senate approves gun control bill
AP: The New York Senate has approved a gun control bill by a vote of 43 to 18. The bill targets assault rifles, high-capacity clips of ammunition and requires reports of the mentally ill who pose a threat to others with illegal guns. The Democrat-led Assembly is expected to pass the measure.

Source
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #137 on: January 21, 2013, 08:55:03 AM »

'nother one.
http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8596392/us-teen-held-in-shooting-of-five-people

Pure agenda driven drivel. How much of this has to do with the over-prescribing of mood-altering chems (lEGAL ones, like Adderal) to children? Nope, there was an "assault-style" weapon found in the house so THAT must be the culprit. This is just like the big push by the US media to get rid of SUVs in the early 2000s by mentioning in every reported accident story that one of the vehicles was an SUV, even if it had nothing to do with the reason for the accident in the first place.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #138 on: January 21, 2013, 09:23:54 AM »

'nother one.
http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8596392/us-teen-held-in-shooting-of-five-people

Pure agenda driven drivel. How much of this has to do with the over-prescribing of mood-altering chems (lEGAL ones, like Adderal) to children? Nope, there was an "assault-style" weapon found in the house so THAT must be the culprit. This is just like the big push by the US media to get rid of SUVs in the early 2000s by mentioning in every reported accident story that one of the vehicles was an SUV, even if it had nothing to do with the reason for the accident in the first place.
I don't think they were blaming the shooting on the presence of guns - as they said, they hadn't even confirmed the relationship between the killer and the victims yet, let alone the motive or anything else. They just said they found guns at the house after the shooting, which, I mean, no shit.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #139 on: January 21, 2013, 09:59:29 AM »

Yes, but why be specific about an "assault-style" weapon when:

A: There is no agreed-upon definition of an assault weapon.
B: There is no evidence released yet that even states that the assault style weapon was used.

So why mention it? It's simply an agenda push.

You all might like this video of an attempted assassination of a Turkish politician. Look Ma, no Assault Weapon.

You'll notice the reason the gent failed wasn't the weapon jamming; it was an unfamiliarity with the pistol. He forgot to chamber a round. and it wasn't an "assault-style weapon", whatever that means.

Honestly the only changes that I would push for beyond Universal background checks are the following:

1. Ban for civilian sale the 5.56mm x 45 NATO, 7.62mm x 51 NATO, and the 7.62mm X 39mm rounds; these three rounds were designed for military use, thus should not be sold on the civilian market. This will also have the effect of starving all AR-15s and AK-47s (which are the two most prominent weapons in the civilian market that have a basis with a mil-spec weapon; the thing politicians want to get rid of) of the thing they need to function; ammunition.

2. All new makes/models of weapon/ammunition must be approved for civilian sale by the BATF before they can be sold on the open market. This is necessary to avoid arms manufacturers simply putting out a new model of AR-15 or AK-47 in a different available caliber.

3. Voluntary gun buy-back programs.
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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #140 on: January 22, 2013, 02:08:16 PM »

another mass shooting at a college in Texas; news just broke, so no link to a story yet.

:(

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Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #141 on: January 22, 2013, 05:08:33 PM »

This wasn't a shooting like we've come to think. This was an old fashioned shootout with people getting caught in the middle.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/22/shooting-reported-at-texas-college/?hpt=hp_t1

Quote
- Three people, including one gunman, were wounded in shooting between two people at Lone Star College campus in Houston, Texas, school spokesman says
- Two suspects are in custody, CNN affiliates KHOU and KTRK report
- Fourth person suffered heart attack, federal law enforcement source says
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