THESHADOWBOX.NET

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Amanda is making Art with your support on Patreon. Join become a patron and help AFP make ALL THE THINGS.

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 ... 10  All   Go Down

Author Topic: another week, another mass shooting in the USA  (Read 16608 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Rob

  • Now I must go, Sean Hannity is on.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2154
  • Harmless
    • My Yahoo!
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2012, 12:07:02 PM »

You do realize that your point about the USA and your point about Switzerland are at odds with each other, right?

Also, it's quite a large leap to suggest that armed police would only break into your home and surround you if you had already shot someone.  The 2nd amendment exists because of the very real threat that the government could and would use force against its own population at any given moment, for any given reason.  I'll admit that the threat has been minimized, but it still exists today.

Logged
Everybody dies
Frustrated and sad
And that is beautiful

Captain Oblivious

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7339
  • Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!
    • The NCC! I am a mod there =]
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2012, 12:32:08 PM »

It exists in every country, but not all of us have the right to bear arms. I think at least some of the blame should rest on the poor treatment the mentally ill get. It's highly likely this guy was mentally ill but just as unlikely that he wouldn't have been able to get help. To put a different spin on things.

Also, Astica: There have been studies done which show that the number of shooting incidents after a major one like this is directly correlated to how much media attention the major one gets. It's been recommended several times that the media tone it down and stop sensationalising things like this but it never happens.
Logged
Quote from: Reptile
Congratulations, you tiny badass!

Quote from: ~Miranda~
Everything you said looks like real words to me.

Great minds think alike but fools seldom differ

RoRi23

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 54
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2012, 12:58:27 PM »

To me the idea that you need an armed citizenry to keep the government at bay seems really strange.

When the US constitution was drafted and democracy was a new and unproven concept it may have made sense (though the civil war seems to indicate that armed resistance may not be the best means of defending your interests) but after two hundred years one would think that you should have managed to implement the necessary procedures and safeguards to ensure that a government no longer has to be regarded as a separate entity but as something whose composition and policies are set by the citizens.

From my point of view the US government seems to be much more likely to intrude on its citizens' freedom and liberties than most European governments even though most nations in Europe severely restrict the possession of firearms.

Ultimately the easy availability of guns is at least a contributing factor to the fact that the US have a rate of gun related deaths that is 8 times higher than Germany's and 18 times higher than the UK's and it's even worse when you don't count suicides cause than you are 50 times more likely to be killed by firearms in the US (according to this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate ).

I don't think there are benefits to widespread gun possession that outweigh that kind of disadvantage.
Logged

CeeGBee

  • Too o-o-old to rock & ro-o-oll, but too young to die...
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18563
    • Facebook, website, what's the dif?
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2012, 03:23:57 PM »

With all due respect to Rob and all Second-Amendment buffs everywhere, that wasn't the idea.
The folks writing our Constitution were creating a hybrid government, with a strong central
government AND a large degree of state-level autonomy, a situation with a whole lot of built-in
tension.  The Second Amendment was written to ensure that the Federal government couldn't
dissolve the state militias and leave the states impotent to resist some future over-reach of
Federal law.  Even though the clearest demonstration of its implications as originally intended
was in our Civil War, I am still of the view that it was a good idea. 

Modern interpretation, however, is that it is an individual right.  Further, whatever the original
intent, or the modern legal intent, of the SECOND Amendment, it is my fairly-well-educated opinion
that, if the "Founding Fathers" had dreamed for a moment that someone would try to take away
household arms from a whole population, they WOULD have included that in... ...probably
the Fourth Amendment so I have no objection to the modern, dare I say it, more liberal
interpretation of the Second.

Of course, that's all legalism and paper, and does little to address the more complicated question
of balancing the myriad real-world factors involved, to try and prevent these awful events.
Logged
Is it bad that what she said made perfect sense to me?

N.U.

  • Initials... OF DOOM!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2258
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2012, 04:34:27 PM »

Morgan Freeman had a great opinion about this. The issue is two-fold. One is about the way the media sensationalizes these things, where the killers get remembered and the victims fade into obscurity. The other is the lack of proper mental-health investment in the US.
Logged

Rob

  • Now I must go, Sean Hannity is on.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2154
  • Harmless
    • My Yahoo!
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2012, 05:56:51 PM »

With all due respect to Cee, at the time of the drafting of the 2nd amendment, the militia was made up of private citizens, therefore the right is expressly recognized as belonging to the individual.

Also, as the bill of rights was written to recognize  and enumerate the inalienable rights of each human citizen and to limit the powers of the Federal government, repectively. I would find it peculiar that this one amendment would address the rights of a state.
Logged
Everybody dies
Frustrated and sad
And that is beautiful

Captain Oblivious

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7339
  • Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!
    • The NCC! I am a mod there =]
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2012, 06:48:43 PM »

Surely though it should be revised to reflect modern life. There are many many laws that have now become defunct as society has changed, why not this one?*

(I do understand that it's a little bit more than a law but it can be changed nonetheless)
Logged
Quote from: Reptile
Congratulations, you tiny badass!

Quote from: ~Miranda~
Everything you said looks like real words to me.

Great minds think alike but fools seldom differ

Musings

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 3011
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2012, 07:58:19 PM »

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation

Quote
In the wake of the slaughters this summer at a Colorado movie theater and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, we set out to track mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years. We identified and analyzed 62 of them, and one striking pattern in the data is this: In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun. Moreover, we found that the rate of mass shootings has increased in recent years—at a time when America has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of new laws has made it easier than ever to carry them in public. And in recent rampages in which armed civilians attempted to intervene, they not only failed to stop the shooter but also were gravely wounded or killed.

And this has been passed around a lot, but it still a very worthwhile read: http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

Quote
I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness.

According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

Let's take better care of our ill, and put away our guns -- or at least the ones created to shoot ridiculous amounts of bullets a second.  This problem is multi-faceted, and too big and lethal to not attack from every possible preventive action.
Logged
www.upstreamofconsciousness.blogspot.com

"Just dance, gonna be OK, just dance." - Lady Gaga, inspired by Rainer Maria Rilke

music box

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 4441
    • http://icemyeyes.deviantart.com/
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2012, 12:33:49 AM »

I just sat down and cried when I heard this.

Astica

  • Ghost
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 3612
  • Purportedly decadent.
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2012, 03:30:28 AM »

@Rob: how are my points at odds with each other? Also, if the armed offenders response people are coming to arrest you, sure, you might not have already shot someone, but wanting to own a semi-automatic so you can shoot large quantities of cops or similar is still problematic :P

I definitely think the media attention is harmful, though. I mean, as people have already said, we know so many stupid details about the guy - he used to carry a briefcase, attended LAN parties, wore his shirts with the top button done up - but most of us can't remember or never heard any of the names of the victims. I hate media censorship, but I still wish they'd keep themselves in check when it comes to things like this.
Logged
Quote from: Indja
I mean really, my sins are my own - i don't wnat some cunt to swoop in and wipe the slate clean. it is my fucking slate. fuck offf.

Quote from: N.U.
Tricorns are fuckbanana awesome.

Miranda.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 1303
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 10:05:07 AM »

I feel like the "media" has gotten so out of hand. There were so many different outlets & they were all reporting the same information with slight variations. It was like a hug fucked up game of telephone. They reported the wrong freaking person as the shooter?? wtf! How does that even happen? They said there may have been 2 shooters. They said that his dad was shot at home & his mom was among the dead at the school. They said his mom was a teacher at the school & the he shot her class. And yet, I read it. All day Friday. All Day Saturday. All day Sunday. Every article I found that I hadn't seen before. I wanted to know their names I wanted to see their faces. It seemed... appropriate. My husband kept telling me to stop reading the articles because it upset me. But how could I stop? How could I ignore that this was happening because it upset me? It just didn't seem right to turn it off when all of those people could not. I don't even know what is appropriate to say or feel because I don't really have anything to do with what happened. Except someone killed a bunch a little kids and 6 adults with lives and families & how am I not a part of that?

IDK what the solution is. gun control? mental health care? sure. great. I don't really care what it is I just hope that we figure something out. Friday there was a shooting in Newton. Saturday there was a shooting in Alabama. Sunday there was a shooting in San Antonio. wtf is wrong with the world? My sister is blogging about being afraid to leave her apartment. I'm trying not to be freaked out about going to San Antonio next weekend.  idk you guys
Logged
I could live for nothing but kissing.

5 points to the house of your choosing for awesome crochet skills.

imaginary friend

  • Enigmagnetic
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 14904
  • up in flames
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2012, 11:55:54 AM »

^ Short-term, I'd like to see all guns in private hands registered and their owners assessed a yearly per-gun fee, just like we do with cars. All new guns and ammo get hit with a tax that goes to fund mental health services along with the previously mentioned fee; we've done something similar with tobacco sales. Thorough background checks? Mandatory, even if you already own firearms and want to buy more. No more gun show or internet sales, period. Possession of unregistered guns = mandatory jail time. On antidepressants? No guns for u. Convicted of a violent crime? No guns for u.

Long term? We overturned the 18th Amendment - we can at the very least rewrite the 2nd.

Rose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 810
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2012, 03:17:21 PM »

@Miranda: I understand how you feel about needing to be plugged into the media. I reacted that way with the Aurora Theater Shooting (partly because it was in my own state, in a city I frequent, and it was so freaking close to home). It's like you have to be there. You feel like you have to bear witness. You feel like you have to observe every nuance, memorize every detail, and open yourself up to feeling the pain really deeply - otherwise you're not doing the victims justice. They deserve you to go through this for them because they went through hell, and because the victims who survived are going to be going through hell for a very long time.
But it's so unhealthy. After the theater shooting I was a wreck; I seriously spent most of the day crying off and on, and was pretty unstable for days afterwards. I'm not exactly doing better this time, but I'm able to keep myself in check a bit better - and I made a conscious decision not to be plugged into what the media is saying.
They amp it up. They make it so much worse. I can process this in my own way, I can feel pain and horror and immense sadness without the media amplifying it. I can think about the teachers and the children and the parents everyday without the media making it into a sideshow and making my emotions harder for me to control.
My Mom has been doing what you've been doing - and I keep trying to get her to turn it off. Because seriously, it's  not worth it, and this isn't the proper way to grieve. It's not ignoring what's happening, it's ignoring the media feeding frenzy. It's processing it in your own way. It's grieving in a healthy manner and honoring them without the taint of the corrupt media.

@imaginary: That is a marvelous idea. And it's not taking away anyone's rights, it's just restructuring what bit of a system there is to make it far more efficient and purposeful.
Logged

JohnnyDBBUK

  • Proud custodian of the Neville sisters souls
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 4358
  • Where in time is Brian Viglione?
    • ~Gaslight Cabaret Club~
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2012, 09:14:44 AM »

Amanda Palmer please use your powers for good and ask your fans to sign this?
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/urge-congress-advance-federal-legislation-banning-sale-assault-rifles-high-capacity-magazines/ssgnNqVT

if there is a better petition on the go then use that instead but can you ask your fans via your internet powers to sign/take the message to the US government?

it still needs 5000 signatures and your fanbase vastly exceeds this.

Thanks, Your loyal fan and peace loving free hug giver.

N.U.

  • Initials... OF DOOM!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2258
Re: another week, another mass shooting in the USA
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2012, 09:43:48 AM »

The gun argument is a red herring. This is a mental health issue.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 ... 10  All   Go Up