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Author Topic: The Second Amendment  (Read 2295 times)

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VipersGratitude

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The Second Amendment
« on: January 19, 2013, 04:43:30 AM »

Today, as a thought experiment, I put myself in the role of a military strategist in a tyrannical US government, just the citizenship rose up against the tyranny - What would I do?

The answer is simple...

Being in government I'd have all the intelligence about the supply infrastructure of my own country. I wouldn't need to gather the intelligence, I'd have it already. Joe Citizen, on the other hand, would have to figure all that out, giving me the advantage.

I'd hole up in Area 51 for two reasons:
It's remote and fortified.
It's the only US military base I can name off the top of my head.

Any citizen militia is likely to prepare their assault from the nearest city, which is Las Vegas. So, I'd launch a few tactical surface-to-surface ballistic missiles to take out the water treatement plant, and food storage areas, electricity generators, and roads leading in and out of the city.

This would leave that territory isolated, without food, water, and electricity. It would, however, be brimming with firearms. That way I can just sit back and let the second amendment suppress the revolt for me.

Do you think the 2nd amendment is woefully outdated? Is it now subject to the law of unintended consequences? Has time subverted it's original intention in to a tool of oppression?

Discuss  ^-^
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Rob

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Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2013, 11:13:05 PM »

Your experiment is absurd and ridiculous.

Discuss.
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CeeGBee

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Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2013, 11:49:11 PM »

Your experiment is absurd and ridiculous.

Discuss.
No more so than any other "solution" that can be articulated in one paragraph or less.
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VipersGratitude

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Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2013, 04:55:16 PM »

Why do you think so? I'd love to hear your response...

But, before you do respond let me clarify a few things.

1. The Area 51 part was just to crack the "its the only one I can think of" joke. I imagine this happening in every dense urban area.

2. I'm not talking about a radical fringe group, whom everyone else thinks is crazy - That would just support my original assertion that guns would more likely kill fellow citizens, than members of a tyrannical government - I'm talking about an entire population rising up, so all bets are off, and hearts and minds no longer need considered.

3. I'm from a country who attempted an armed insurrection in recent times. So not only can I draw on a lot of real life experience, I can tell you that guns were not the weapon of choice as a full frontal assault would have just been silly.
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Morpheus Laughing

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Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2013, 07:40:18 PM »

There are too many unknowns to give a robust answer. For instance: 

1)If an entire population revolts there will be some government inside defectors varying in numbers (depending on how implicated the insiders are). Inside information improves the chances of revolt. That could even things up a little. It depends on the nature of the tyranny.

2)The criminal underworld of illegal firearm ownership would play a role in such an uprising. How would the ratio of illegal and legal ownership effect the situation? Could a criminal element subdue a (previously) law abiding population? Could the (previously) law abiding population rely on its smarter residents to come up with something inventive that doesn't involve depending on (or being suppressed by) the criminal aspect?.. And is the criminal aspect easily bribed by the tyrannical government?

3)Can the international community be counted on to support the uprising? (And why wasn’t it keeping tabs on the situation? etc.)

I can anticipate other types of questions like this and thought experiments tend to become unwieldy once the variables start to get to complex. I’m not without sympathy though;  I’m constantly looking out for a illustrative scenario that can bring some clarity to my ethical concerns.   

Note: My general view is that it is good to find ways of discouraging firearm ownership and that it would be good if the damage from these weapons could be reflected in an insurance fee. It would be very hefty. 
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N.U.

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Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2013, 02:25:17 PM »

Plain and simple, if any government fires on it's own citizens, they have lost the court of public opinion and the people will revolt.

Second, you are asking a military, which is a group of citizens, to fire on another group of citizens. What's to say you don't have a sizable chunk of the military turning those big guns around on the government?
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Hakushi

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Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2013, 02:02:10 AM »

You asked if I think the 2nd amendment is outdated. My answer: YES.

The thought of the people holding their own against a tyrannical gov't was all fine and dandy when in the 18th century, it was musket against musket. Today, the gov't has planes, and tanks, and M16s and chemical weapons, and drones, etc. WHAT DO YOU REALLY THINK YOUR HANDGUN IS GONNA DO?! So, yes, outdated.

Gun violence is on the rise in America (as I'm sure you've noticed). It seems to happen every other day somewhere that some idiot opens fire in public. Very little of our insurrection troubles are coming from the gov't, but from the kids who see total violence as a solution. Just look at the 7 month spreads the media does on these shooters, ranking them to other shooters as though it were a game. They give the shooter all the fame and attention he wanted all his life, inspiring others. Make guns impossible to get, and there wouldn't be this problem. Also, as you've pointed out, in the event of a super-tyrannical gov't, full frontal assault is the wrong way to do it.
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N.U.

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Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 08:36:54 AM »

Look at studies of gun violence over the last 30 years and you'll see it's actually LOWER than it has been.
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Captain Oblivious

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Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2013, 10:17:51 AM »

Look at studies of gun violence over the last 30 years and you'll see it's actually LOWER than it has been.

Which obviously means that everything is ok.
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N.U.

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Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2013, 02:43:47 PM »

I never made any such statement, Please don't put words in my mouth; I'm very capable of speaking for myself, thank you.
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Captain Oblivious

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Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2013, 03:50:43 PM »

I didn't mean to do so, but your post implied that gun crime has decreased so where is the problem?
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Hakushi

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Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2013, 04:14:31 PM »

I do believe you are right, N.U. : gun violence is at a low now. I respectfully retract the "on the rise" statement (looked it up). The point of the post is the same, though. I think the problem is we hear about it much more. My point, outside of all that, was that I think the 2nd amendment is obsolete, and that handguns cause more problems than they solve.
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N.U.

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Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2014, 05:31:26 AM »

I firmly believe the 2nd amendment is as necessary as the 1st, the 3rd, the 10th, the 14th, or any other amendment. We simply cannot prioritize one part of the constitution over another (18th and 21st Amendments), with the only possible exception being amendments undoing earlier amendments or earlier writings of the main body of the Constitution (13th Amendment overriding the 3/5 clause).

However, I believe the larger issue at hand in this day and age isn't one of access to firearms. The issue is one of a lack of education on the ethical use of firearms. We hide these things from our children so the first moment they are exposed to them, they are proceeding without any development of ethics around the subject, similar to our general social attitude towards alcohol use. Is it any shock that college students suddenly exposed to alcohol use without a framework to use alcohol responsibly are the ones most likely to overuse alcohol?
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