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[CeeGBee]

1. What a f'in idiot, what a moron...

2. His questions are all easily answered within relatively straightforward accepted scientific theory...


However (and I was kinda hoping he'd be clever enough to throw this one out there...)
That "big-bang" thing...  Who lit the fuse?  Where's the "prime mover"?  What started it all?

The obvious flaw in the "pure" scientific theory of the Big Bang is that scientists want a starting
point, but they don't want to concede that for there to be a moment at which everything started,
someone/something had to have started it.  As accepted scientific law clearly states, and experimental
observation can easily demonstrate, an object at rest tends to remain at rest unless/until acted
upon by an outside force.  If everything in the entire universe was compacted together in a single
space, what was the "outside force"?

My follow-up question is "what happened the day before the Big Bang?"

[If anyone's interested, I don't accept the BB as anything more than our farthest theoretical observation
of a rhythmic expansion/contraction of the space near us in a physically infinite existence.  A compression
in The Great Cosmic Slinky...]

Your speculations are nullified as nullifiers by the fact that it is, indeed, called the Big Bang !!!Theory!!!; no proof necessary, as it isn't definitely definite. Also, I'd expect you to know they do have theories about that which caused the big bang.

You specifically stated that an object at rest stays at rest unless acted upon, or something like that, as a possible flaw of this theory. That is a law of physics - physics being laws of the universe - the universe being this thing in which we exist. I do not believe good scientists claim that anything notwithin this universe is necessarily affected by laws within this universe. And this universe was definitely created by something not within itself, since it possessed no self until the act of creation was acted.
To clarify something, space is everything that this universe is. The universe does have boundaries, the parts outside of which I would not call space, since there's nothing to prove that, and no one claims to be capable of proving what exists. If there were ever words created in any language to describe that which is not here and probably not anywhere, even as a concept, I would use them to tell you what caused this universe to be.

(Warning: the following may be seen as paradoxical)
I both agree and disagree.  I believe the "beyond" you describe exists, if "exist" is the right word for something that
doesn't actually exist in any place.  Space is infinite, but there is something that is not part of space.  However, I
believe (and I think someone suggested that S. Hawking, whose mind I quite respect, believes likewise) that the
"big bang" was simply the point at which the relatively near portion of the physical universe reached one extreme
of an infinite compression wave, being squashed as tightly together as it could get, and began re-expanding.  At
some point in time (really, in time), mutual gravitational attraction will reverse the current expanding tendency, and
it will begin to collapse upon itself again...  and so it has been, and so it will be again...  maybe never exactly the
same, but the general pattern repeats.....   Didja ever play with a spirograph?  Do they even still make 'em?
                                                           How 'bout a slinky?
                                                           Those two toys contain the secret of the physical universe....

Lastly, and now I'm just being nice, days are arbitrary measurements that roughly calculate the time taken for the earth to rotate around it's axis 360 degrees. Nothing happened the day before the Big Bang, because days did not exist then.

I'm not an expert on this subject. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Time and distance all being relative, I used the term "day" simply to refer to some amount of time prior to  that "Bang" thing.

I don't really think the best scientific minds among humanity are competent to claim "expertise" here, so even if I did disagree
utterly with something you said, I wouldn't say you were wrong.

[Edicius]

1. What a f'in idiot, what a moron...

2. His questions are all easily answered within relatively straightforward accepted scientific theory...


However (and I was kinda hoping he'd be clever enough to throw this one out there...)
That "big-bang" thing...  Who lit the fuse?  Where's the "prime mover"?  What started it all?

The obvious flaw in the "pure" scientific theory of the Big Bang is that scientists want a starting
point, but they don't want to concede that for there to be a moment at which everything started,
someone/something had to have started it.  As accepted scientific law clearly states, and experimental
observation can easily demonstrate, an object at rest tends to remain at rest unless/until acted
upon by an outside force.  If everything in the entire universe was compacted together in a single
space, what was the "outside force"?

My follow-up question is "what happened the day before the Big Bang?"

[If anyone's interested, I don't accept the BB as anything more than our farthest theoretical observation
of a rhythmic expansion/contraction of the space near us in a physically infinite existence.  A compression
in The Great Cosmic Slinky...]

Your speculations are nullified as nullifiers by the fact that it is, indeed, called the Big Bang !!!Theory!!!; no proof necessary, as it isn't definitely definite. Also, I'd expect you to know they do have theories about that which caused the big bang.

You specifically stated that an object at rest stays at rest unless acted upon, or something like that, as a possible flaw of this theory. That is a law of physics - physics being laws of the universe - the universe being this thing in which we exist. I do not believe good scientists claim that anything notwithin this universe is necessarily affected by laws within this universe. And this universe was definitely created by something not within itself, since it possessed no self until the act of creation was acted.
To clarify something, space is everything that this universe is. The universe does have boundaries, the parts outside of which I would not call space, since there's nothing to prove that, and no one claims to be capable of proving what exists. If there were ever words created in any language to describe that which is not here and probably not anywhere, even as a concept, I would use them to tell you what caused this universe to be.

(Warning: the following may be seen as paradoxical)
I both agree and disagree.  I believe the "beyond" you describe exists, if "exist" is the right word for something that
doesn't actually exist in any place.  Space is infinite, but there is something that is not part of space.  However, I
believe (and I think someone suggested that S. Hawking, whose mind I quite respect, believes likewise) that the
"big bang" was simply the point at which the relatively near portion of the physical universe reached one extreme
of an infinite compression wave, being squashed as tightly together as it could get, and began re-expanding.  At
some point in time (really, in time), mutual gravitational attraction will reverse the current expanding tendency, and
it will begin to collapse upon itself again...  and so it has been, and so it will be again...  maybe never exactly the
same, but the general pattern repeats.....   Didja ever play with a spirograph?  Do they even still make 'em?
                                                           How 'bout a slinky?
                                                           Those two toys contain the secret of the physical universe....

Lastly, and now I'm just being nice, days are arbitrary measurements that roughly calculate the time taken for the earth to rotate around it's axis 360 degrees. Nothing happened the day before the Big Bang, because days did not exist then.

I'm not an expert on this subject. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Time and distance all being relative, I used the term "day" simply to refer to some amount of time prior to  that "Bang" thing.

I don't really think the best scientific minds among humanity are competent to claim "expertise" here, so even if I did disagree
utterly with something you said, I wouldn't say you were wrong.

I was just being silly at the end place of my speech.

Why do you believe space is infinite? How do you define space? I've only studied quantum physics, and have not been following modern cosmic theory at all.

Also, I believe the universe has been shown to be accelerating in it's expansion. Has it not yet reached the point of expansion at which it will begin to compress, or is there a theory of which I'm unaware?

I have played with a slinky, but a spirograph must be some ancient mechanism used by savages for entertainment, because I haven't heard of it.

[CeeGBee]

SPIROGRAPH...  Note that the drawn line goes around in circles,but since the circles are nested off-center within one another,
the line crosses itself rather than following the exact same path each time it goes around. I suspect it could easily be replicated
on a computer, and then some.  The point being that things move in cycles, but don't exactly replicate the previous turn.

I don't know jack about "modern cosmic theory", but I feel reasonably certain that "finite space" is analogous to "flat Earth."

However far you go in any given direction, you could always go farther.

Look at your slinky.  Shake it so that a wave moves along it.  Where the coils are compressed together is similar to the matter
near us at the time of the BB.  Now our corner of space is expanding (and I assume, elsewhere it's contracting again, too far
away for us to study, or maybe just far enough that we don't recognize it), like the Slinky coils away from the compression.

Dig?

[Edicius]

SPIROGRAPH...  Note that the drawn line goes around in circles,but since the circles are nested off-center within one another,
the line crosses itself rather than following the exact same path each time it goes around. I suspect it could easily be replicated
on a computer, and then some.  The point being that things move in cycles, but don't exactly replicate the previous turn.

I don't know jack about "modern cosmic theory", but I feel reasonably certain that "finite space" is analogous to "flat Earth."

However far you go in any given direction, you could always go farther.

Look at your slinky.  Shake it so that a wave moves along it.  Where the coils are compressed together is similar to the matter
near us at the time of the BB.  Now our corner of space is expanding (and I assume, elsewhere it's contracting again, too far
away for us to study, or maybe just far enough that we don't recognize it), like the Slinky coils away from the compression.

Dig?

If you're suggesting that our universe is infinite, that has already been proven wrong. I'm not concerned with what happens outside of this cosmos; space may be infinite in all existence that is. But if that's true, that would make some fundamental assumptions about reality false. The fundamental particles that exist here, could not be infinite anywhere. If anything is finite, I'd say everything is finite. But that's a matter of philosophy, and scientists are rarely competent in that field. Or science. My standards are extreme though, approaching perfection.

Direction is also relative. If you believe however far one goes in a direction, one could go farther, I believe you must be implying that there must be a starting point, and if there is a starting point, how can there exist no end? Any expansion would require time, one would assume, and time is very finite - as finite as speed, actually. So anything that starts could only expand so fast, and thus could only go so far. I don't know how well developed your concept of everything is, but I don't understand that. And of course, if something expands, in what space does it expand, and by what means? Must something fill empty space to be created, or is space itself created? What is the absence of space?

It would be better to spend this time conversing about things more relevant to ourselves, though my purpose is to analyze humans, and I've been successful in that venture.

[The Angel Raliel]

One could describe the universe as practically infinite, as the bubble of space/time that it is bound by curves in on itself and is the only way that the universe can be percieved and encountered.....it is however expanding at a particular rate, as it does so space/time itself stretches so that distance and time happen slower than they did at the moment of the big bang. There is every possibility that there are other universes in existence but we have no real way of finding out.

[Edicius]

I think there are varying definitions of space, here. I still don't know what space is, or how to define it. The dictionary doesn't help.

[The Angel Raliel]

space/time is the dimensions of reality that we percieve and give the universe form

[Edicius]

What is form?

[Cheddars Cousin]

You, for instence, take the form of a douche nozzle.

[CeeGBee]

If you're suggesting that our universe is infinite, that has already been proven wrong.

I think Col. Sherman Potter, U.S. Army may have said it best:  Horse Hockey! 
No one's proved any such thing, any more than the ancients proved that the other planets moved in a
corkscrew pattern ("epicycles") as they, along with the rest of the universe, revolved around us.

[The Angel Raliel]

form is organisation and definition..... formless matter is ancient idea that is still incredibly hard to visualise as we live in aformed universe, I personally believe and can be very wrong in thinking that, our perception of form and linear time are merely illusions  defined by our limited experience                     

[dangerpants]

If anything is finite, I'd say everything is finite.

You failed Introduction to Logic, didn't you?

[The Angel Raliel]

The problem with this thread is that it is on the internet, where it takes ages to follow a conversation and it is not in logical order...... Think of reality as being kind of like an ocean...... matter and energy are all the same thing, but have distintive qualities, like different currents or flows..... all things interconnect and interweave..... conciousness is like being an ice-cube in the ocean.... made of the same stuff, but distinct, but re-entering the flow of everything else at any given moment... now think the same thing, but remove the idea of linear time

[Edicius]

I dislike metaphors. I'll respond later.

[The Angel Raliel]

Please just get into the discussion ( you started it ) explain why you dislike metaphors........ explain why you agree/disagree with what we are saying..... describe anything without using metaphors!