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Author Topic: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?  (Read 15167 times)

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Andy Pants

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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #75 on: September 24, 2008, 11:06:37 PM »


Huh. When did I say they were defined by it? You're again, assuming that if I ask that question, I'm placing this person into a role. I'm not, I'm trying to get to know them better. Its an aspect of peoples culture in most cases, and a valid question to ask that leads to a lot of insight. It's not as angry a question as you're making it out to be.

You're taking your case of vehemently not being defined by your heritage and being pretty irrational about it, honestly.

You don't really understand what a 'presumption' is do you?

I am not 'vehemently' making a case about anything. I expressed an opinion and I was questioned about it, so I responded. And I think I'm being perefectly rational and reasonably about it. You can critcise/argue with me all you want. But I reserve the right to respond in a reasonable manner.

Trying arguing to someone who is from a country in a civil war that ethnicity and nationality does not matter.

That doesn't make any sense. In a COUNTRY in the midst of civil war everyone would still technically have the same nationality. For this reason they would probably be even more inclined to argue that nationality is irrelevant. And ethnicity would still be an imagined construct, only possible more rigidly enforced.

Nationality, to me, is based on citizenship and residence.  Ethnicity is based on heritage and lineage.

In a civil war, there are several issues at play -- economic/social/religious/ethnic and the idea of who belongs to a nation and who feels excluded.

Maybe those boundaries shouldn't be concrete; but to ignore them and call them irrelevant is a very very dangerous thing to do.

Outside of civil war, ethnicity and nationality are a part of personal narratives, perhaps for some a larger part than for others.  Again, to ignore that, is dangerous and ignorant. 

Ultimately, by saying there is no such thing as ethnicity and nationality and it is not real, you are imposing your own beliefs and the way you wish to "label" yourself on a very large group of people who do subscribe to those two things in one way or another, and do consider it important.  Thus, in an attempt to break down barriers, you are just being blind to important differences that could actually help do that.

I agree with your definition of nationality but most of the sociologists I have spoken to have said that ethnicity is actually more of just a synonym for 'race'.

But concerning the idea of who belongs to a nation and who feels excluded. You're right, it is merely an idea. If a populace refuses to acknowledge a government it fails. If they refuse to be a part of a particular nation they become independant. I never argued that nationality doesn't exist. Merely that it's not necessarily realted to the concept of culture. And therefore irrelevant to defining a person.

I actually believe it's dangerous to put too much emphasis on these boundaries, especially since many of them are imagined (ethnicity). And some of them are not as tangible as they might seem (nationality). In my opinion it is over-emphasis on these boundaries which actually lead to conflicts. But that's where we differ. As for 'personal narratives', I don't think they're natural but are atually enforced. And frequently used as a political tool to segregate rather than unify.
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Andy Pants

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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #76 on: September 24, 2008, 11:12:25 PM »

Maybe those boundaries shouldn't be concrete; but to ignore them and call them irrelevant is a very very dangerous thing to do.

You're missing the big point here, Musings. Someone may kill another person for being a different color, but since they share more genetics than their neighbor down the street, the difference is imaginary, so it's simply murder, not genocide. Just like acknowledging the difference in skin tone between myself and Morgan Freeman. The difference is imaginary. We're all the same color, the color of love.

I think generally genocide involves the killing of more than one person. But no, you're right I must be the idiot here not you.  O0.

There is a difference between acknowledging differences in physical characteristics and placing people in different racial categories. Can you give me a decent scientifically accurate list of racial categories and criteria for placing people within them? I'll give you a minute if you want to google it.

...

I won't hold my breath.
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Musings

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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #77 on: September 24, 2008, 11:20:37 PM »

I think to me race is far broader than ethnicity, and that's where it ultimately fails.

Groups created based on ethnicity tend to be more self-selected, whereas racial groups are other selected, and other defined.  That's the way I see it.

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Andy Pants

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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #78 on: September 24, 2008, 11:22:15 PM »

Just because the stereotyping is subliminal doesn't necessarily mean it isn't there.

...and trying to eliminate any and all reference points to which someone might attach a stereotype does not accomplish the goal. Just because you refer to people without a mention of race, ethnic background, culture or history does not mean stereotyping isn't there.

In one post, you ask me to address the merit of your argument. In the next, you state that you are hyperbolizing. You can't expect someone to address your arguments articulately if you refuse to define them honestly.

Have you ever noticed that when people are confronted by an idea that isn't their own and that they can't come up with an intelligent response to, they start attacking the person they're arguing with for their method of arguing as oposed to their actual ideas?

No?

Maybe it's just me then.

My argument = there is no such thing as race or ethnicity. So asking someone what their race or ethnicity is in itself an act of sterotyping. Prove me wrong.
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Kovacs

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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #79 on: September 24, 2008, 11:34:02 PM »


Huh. When did I say they were defined by it? You're again, assuming that if I ask that question, I'm placing this person into a role. I'm not, I'm trying to get to know them better. Its an aspect of peoples culture in most cases, and a valid question to ask that leads to a lot of insight. It's not as angry a question as you're making it out to be.

You're taking your case of vehemently not being defined by your heritage and being pretty irrational about it, honestly.

You don't really understand what a 'presumption' is do you?

Nope. You got me. The tone ends up being fairly ironic after your recent definition of ad hominem though, thanks for the laugh.  :)

Quote
I am not 'vehemently' making a case about anything. I expressed an opinion and I was questioned about it, so I responded. And I think I'm being perefectly rational and reasonably about it. You can critcise/argue with me all you want. But I reserve the right to respond in a reasonable manner.

"I have a right to my opinion" isn't even an argument. I don't see your point in stating it. Of course you have a right to it. So do I, and I'm not in any way trying to repress yours.

And I can see your points in the non-existence of race and ethnicity. My point is that you're portraying anyone who doesn't agree with you as something they're very likely not to be. You can argue the non-existence all you like, I'm saying that those who do believe it exists see it more as a descriptor than a profile. Not always, agreed. But certainly enough that punching someone in the face for asking you your ethnicity is what I stated: irrational.

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Musings

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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #80 on: September 24, 2008, 11:35:07 PM »

Ethnicity: based on culture, language, physical characteristics, biological characteristics including higher or lower incidence of disease & shared genetic history, place of origin

If I have all of that in common with someone, and I choose to put myself in a group or label myself based on that commonality, because group politics sometimes can make way for a louder voice and greater participation, because ethnic similarities do bring about feelings of shared history and family and community, then by not recognizing ethnicity, you are not recognizing an important part of who I am and how I identify, and why I consider myself different from you and your struggles and your community.

Sure, you are being ethnic-blind.  But you're also just being blind.

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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #81 on: September 24, 2008, 11:47:53 PM »

My argument = there is no such thing as race or ethnicity. So asking someone what their race or ethnicity is in itself an act of sterotyping. Prove me wrong.

I already stated that I believe the definitions of race are fabricated. Race wasn't even part of the original question asked here. Ethnicity? That's as real as we make it with our definition. A group of people sharing traits, background, allegiance, or association? It exists. Fact. If we associate ourselves with a group, it is valid. Fact. Asking someone their ethnicity is NOT stereotyping. It is asking about a person's identity. Stereotyping would be making associations based on the answers. That's also fact.

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J_Beck

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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2008, 01:16:50 AM »

Maybe those boundaries shouldn't be concrete; but to ignore them and call them irrelevant is a very very dangerous thing to do.

You're missing the big point here, Musings. Someone may kill another person for being a different color, but since they share more genetics than their neighbor down the street, the difference is imaginary, so it's simply murder, not genocide. Just like acknowledging the difference in skin tone between myself and Morgan Freeman. The difference is imaginary. We're all the same color, the color of love.

I think generally genocide involves the killing of more than one person. But no, you're right I must be the idiot here not you.  O0.

There is a difference between acknowledging differences in physical characteristics and placing people in different racial categories. Can you give me a decent scientifically accurate list of racial categories and criteria for placing people within them? I'll give you a minute if you want to google it.

...

I won't hold my breath.


Would social, religious, and genetic work?

Quote
Efforts to identify the origins of Ashkenazi Jews through DNA analysis began in the 1990s. Like most DNA studies of human migration patterns, these studies have focused on two segments of the human genome, the Y chromosome (inherited only by males), and the mitochondrial genome (mtDNA, DNA which passes from mother to child). Both segments are unaffected by recombination. Thus, they provide an indicator of paternal and maternal origins, respectively.

A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000, addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al[16] found that the Y chromosome of some Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East. The proportion of male genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim," and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." This supported the finding that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors."


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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2008, 02:56:39 AM »



these people believe in cultural identity, is that bad?
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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2008, 03:55:27 AM »

it's comforting to know i'm the only black chick on the 'box.  *sarcasmsiren*

well, i've got family from blacks, Jews, whites, and apparently creoles.  would make sense, since both sides of my family come from that part of the South.  nonetheless, i'd be a Negro in the state of Georgia.

although, i do like what Andy is saying, and part of me agrees.  it seems like the minute somebody realizes your race, you're bound to whatever stereotypes occur within that spectrum.  i cannot count the amount of times some stupid person has imitated "Shenaynay" with me, just because i'm black, and they wanted to crack a joke, or assume that i may behave that way.  or the assumption that i listen to hip hop, can dance very well, or sing like Aretha Franklin, just because i'm a singer, and i'm black.  my musical theatre teacher once told me, after a piece, that next time i sang it, to sing it like Aretha.  it's even worse when you have black people who assume that just because you're black, you happily fit into the stereotypes as well.

even outside of that, i've seen people of many races reject their stereotypes, and get shit from those within their race, simply because -they- chose to not just accept them, but obey them religiously.  it makes self-definition almost impossible when you have your race telling you to obey the stereotypes, and then you have other races berating you for not obeying the stereotypes.

perfect example--wiggers.  white people who want to listen to hip hop, and follow the culture.  i, personally, have no issue with these people.  i think sometimes they take the stereotypes WAY too far to the point of being insulting, but whatever.  i don't care.  i just find it so sad when white/black people insult them because, "ZOMG they're trying to act black!"  so the fuck what?  who cares?  you aren't them, and you don't know shit about them.

same with blacks who listen to metal and punk rock, and get insulted for listening to "white peoplez devil music".  my mother STILL calls it that, to this day.  it's shameful.
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Musings

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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2008, 06:19:00 AM »

Quote
Efforts to identify the origins of Ashkenazi Jews through DNA analysis began in the 1990s. Like most DNA studies of human migration patterns, these studies have focused on two segments of the human genome, the Y chromosome (inherited only by males), and the mitochondrial genome (mtDNA, DNA which passes from mother to child). Both segments are unaffected by recombination. Thus, they provide an indicator of paternal and maternal origins, respectively.

A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000, addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al[16] found that the Y chromosome of some Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East. The proportion of male genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim," and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." This supported the finding that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors."

Ah! Was looking for the Ashkenazi Jew example, could not remember how to spell Ashkenazi.
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J_Beck

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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2008, 09:05:49 AM »

Quote
Efforts to identify the origins of Ashkenazi Jews through DNA analysis began in the 1990s. Like most DNA studies of human migration patterns, these studies have focused on two segments of the human genome, the Y chromosome (inherited only by males), and the mitochondrial genome (mtDNA, DNA which passes from mother to child). Both segments are unaffected by recombination. Thus, they provide an indicator of paternal and maternal origins, respectively.

A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000, addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al[16] found that the Y chromosome of some Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East. The proportion of male genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim," and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." This supported the finding that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors."

Ah! Was looking for the Ashkenazi Jew example, could not remember how to spell Ashkenazi.

No problem, whenver you got a question about judens, delicatessen , or just want to start a hora, you know who to call.

(plus hora's are amazing at cocnerts, it turns out to be a very different experience than the ones of youth, tons of 20's and 30's people drunk dancing in a circle, could be nothing better)
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livorna

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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2008, 09:59:54 AM »

I am officially 1/2 white and 1/2 creole
in reality I'm a mixture of pretty much every race there is to some extent
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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2008, 12:53:20 PM »

A lovely op-ed bit from today's NY Times on "American Exceptionalism"....


(...a sample...)
Quote from: John McCain
I do believe in American exceptionalism. We are the only nation I know that really is deeply concerned
about adhering to the principle that all of us are created equal.
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Re: Whats Yo Nationality/Ethnicity/Background?
« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2008, 01:19:48 PM »

I am Irish, French, Polish, German and Swedish.
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