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Author Topic: The inauguration of Barack Obama.  (Read 19614 times)

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CeeGBee

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2009, 10:45:44 PM »

Does anyone say "ofay" anymore?  :embarassed:



And Ms. Haushinka, only one clan of Scots get to use that particular term.
We call them Graham Crackers....    :)



And finally, I'm appalled by bad spelling....  but we all knew that.   :-X
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Is it bad that what she said made perfect sense to me?

Haushinka

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2009, 05:13:26 AM »

you're a peckerwood. 

Sounds dirty.
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Andy Pants

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2009, 07:34:26 AM »

"People who base their claims to social rights on the basis of a group identity will not appreciate being told that that identity is just a social construct" - Steven Epstein

Race is a social construct as it is not something tangible. It is also subjective in that each person who believes in it has a different interpretation of it. It is also meaningless in that it is not a rigid classification or a barrier. This doesn't mean you can't be proud of it. My point is merely that it is lucid and irrelevant in most situations. But like most post-modern symbols the characteristics one associates with it are often confused with the symbol itself. This is counter-productive to a functioning society in which each individual has the freedom to act like, be and do whatever they want. It actually creates rigid social constructs and oppressive sterotypes. When I say it is meaningless what I mean is that its meaning is intangible and could mean anything depending on the individual. It is now a free associated symbol. Most conflict over the issue of race emerges from people failing to understand this concept. And assuming others think of it the same way they do.

Alright, I don't know what that quote had to do with anything you said. I don't think you really read the quote right, because it seems the man is trying to say those who think they deserve things because of their group identity don't understand that identity is just something made of by society. I mean I guess you were just using the last part of that quote to tie in to your little paragraph there, but there is no talk of rights here >.<

Anyway, I just wanna give a triple tongue click, and say ethnicity is a big part of who everyone is. It's part of understanding history and who you came from. If I were kin of Martin Luther King, I would not think that is irrelevant. If I were a Native American , I wouldn't think that is irrelevant either. Just because race is subjective, doesn't mean it's without value. It's just like when people hold on to certain things of sentimental value. Just because that rock doesn't hold meaning to me, it could be very important to the person it belongs to. Being proud of your heritage isn't counterproductive, it goes to show that everyone truly is different, and it opens people's mind. Just a quick question though, do you expect everyone to find one common ground though, and live by that, turning us all into the same people? Do you think that everyone should celebrate Christmas instead of Hanukkah or Ramadan? I just don't get what you are saying.

Race is social construct, subjective, meaningless, lucid and irrlevant. Those are a lot of words, and you just are pretty much trying to prove your point because you say no one sees it as the same thing. "But like most post-modern symbols the characteristics one associates with it are often confused with the symbol itself." Well maybe the reason "one" handles their heritage and heritage itself differently is because they've all taken something different from it.

"Most conflict over the issue of race emerges from people failing to understand this concept."
What concept? Your concept? I hope your not saying conflict starts because people don't think like you, and care about being different, and care about what they've come from, and care to know what happened in history and what part of history they've come from. I think you might have race problems, where you have a hard time understanding it. Do people who are proud of what they have come from bother you?

I have gone back and read your post and and still don't see where you outline exactly how the concept of race is meaningful in any way.

Firstly, I don't need to belong to a racial category in order to have an understanding of history. I can read a fucking book. And race and heritage are different words for a reason. They are not synonyms, they are in fact two different things.

Secondly, just because it's valued by someone doesn't mean it should be valuable to everyone. If you identified yourself as one of the racial categories you mentioned you would probably think it was meaningful, because that's the way that you would have been conditioned to think about it by society. And because fights for social rights are organised under group identities. In which each individual always has a completely different set of goals. But all people think they want the same thing. It is therefore an arbitrary and meaningless construct in my opinion. This is the same phenomenon that Bob Dylan identified in the liberal movement of the 1960s in case you were really stupid enough to misunderstand the quote in my second post. The whole 'it's important because people think it's important' argument is just rediculous.

I generally value individual identity over group identity. And no, group identity is not a facet of individual identity. Only the individual ideas that people falsely associate with those groups are. I also think the only group identities that that are true and therefore worth acknowledging are those with established ideaologies. Or at least those that acknowledge parameters for diversion from established ideaologies. This is why race is flawed as a social categorisation and therefore irrelevant in all circumstances in which individuals in the supposed group do not share a common goal. And usually in these circumstances the particular people sharing the goal do not fit into common understandings of racial categorisations. And they demand re-evaluation by those with preconceived notions of race. So I don't see viewing race as meaningless social construct as a particularly flawed starting point. In fact I think it's the better of those two alternatives.

Thirdly, I never said I expected anything of anyone. I just sated a personal opinion. Which everyone is getting pissy about. I don't care what meaningless masks you choose to adopt. Whatever gives you something to pass the time. You seem to admit yourself that its only meaningful because people believe it is. That is my only point.

As for your last paragraph I have never heard anyone be so retarded. Try to read this nice and slowly. The concept which people fail to understand is the one I am talking about. Race is subjective. It is a social construct.

This is what it must feel like to be a primary school teacher.

You suggest that you don't think it's meaningless just because its a social construct, I diagree completely. Many social constructs are meaningless. And categories of identity particularly so.

You also suggest, although it isn't clearly stated, that it is important because it makes everyone different. As if people can be grouped into categories of like-difference. Please tell me what these differences are that all people of particular races share. I'd really like to know.

Lastly I'd just like to point out that your disagreement is welcome but your disrepect and disapproval is completely unwelcome and unecessary.
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Haushinka

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2009, 11:06:15 AM »

Ugh just UGH fuck off.
Nobody else agrees with you. That's your opinion and I have mine.
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Indja

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2009, 11:13:22 AM »

Ugh just UGH fuck off.

A beautifully constructed argument from Ms Shinka there.
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Haushinka

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2009, 11:26:30 AM »

There is no point in arguing. I am bull headed and he is pig headed.
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Yoshiki Vázquez Baeza.
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Indja

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2009, 11:32:24 AM »

And I'm blockheaded! HURRAH!
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Kenny Wisdom

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2009, 11:57:24 AM »

Ugh just UGH fuck off.
Nobody else agrees with you. That's your opinion and I have mine.

What the Sweaty said.
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yosmark

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2009, 12:50:43 PM »

I doubt Mr. Pants is being serious, as he said he loves attention.
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caddy

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2009, 12:58:26 PM »

I have gone back and read your post and and still don't see where you outline exactly how the concept of race is meaningful in any way.

Firstly, I don't need to belong to a racial category in order to have an understanding of history. I can read a fucking book. And race and heritage are different words for a reason. They are not synonyms, they are in fact two different things.

Somebody without a race/ethinicity/background (one might say) has no heritage.  The two aren't mutually exclusive.  Merriam Webster defines heritage as,



Main Entry:
    her·i·tage Listen to the pronunciation of heritage
Pronunciation:
    \ˈher-ə-tij, ˈhe-rə-\
Function:
    noun
Etymology:
    Middle English, from Anglo-French, from heriter to inherit, from Late Latin hereditare, from Latin hered-, heres heir — more at heir
Date:
    13th century

1: property that descends to an heir2 a: something transmitted by or acquired from a predecessor : legacy , inheritance b: tradition3: something possessed as a result of one's natural situation or birth : birthright <the nation's heritage of tolerance>
2 a: something transmitted by or acquired from a predecessor : legacy  , inheritance b: tradition3: something possessed as a result of one's natural situation or birth : birthright <the nation's heritage of tolerance>



That means you INHERITED who you are, in a cultural/racial sense, from somebody else.  This is why I have no problem with those of European descent taking pride in their background.  So long as their not doing it because they think it's BETTER than somebody else's background.  *taps her temple*  S'called thinkin'. 


Quote
Secondly, just because it's valued by someone doesn't mean it should be valuable to everyone. If you identified yourself as one of the racial categories you mentioned you would probably think it was meaningful, because that's the way that you would have been conditioned to think about it by society. And because fights for social rights are organised under group identities. In which each individual always has a completely different set of goals. But all people think they want the same thing. It is therefore an arbitrary and meaningless construct in my opinion. This is the same phenomenon that Bob Dylan identified in the liberal movement of the 1960s in case you were really stupid enough to misunderstand the quote in my second post. The whole 'it's important because people think it's important' argument is just rediculous.


One, yes, it is your opinion.  It is not your tried and true fact.  If you identified yourself with a group, doesn't mean (get this) that's the only group you will EVER identify with.  You can be in a circle for one thing, and in several different circles, while understanding, acknowledging, and identifying with each other.  The ability doesn't make it meaningless.  Actually, it makes you a person open to interpretation.  Understand this, Andy, there will always be different cultures, races, and ethnicities.  They aren't going anywhere, as those things have lasted for centuries.  No, you don't have to perfectly be that which you were born into, but you also don't have to abandon it all together as if it's completely irrelevant.  Literally, history is made up of different cultures interacting, and causing either change or art.  You can consider race a social construct, and that's fine.  You can also take from your race what you like, not force yourself into the rest, and (get this) not force that down other people's throat.

Honestly, the whole reason nobody is agreeing with you right now?  You're aggressively trying to force your opinions on others, and calling them stupid for not agreeing with you.  Ugh, nobody is going to even look at you twice that way.

Quote
I generally value individual identity over group identity. And no, group identity is not a facet of individual identity. Only the individual ideas that people falsely associate with those groups are. I also think the only group identities that that are true and therefore worth acknowledging are those with established ideaologies. Or at least those that acknowledge parameters for diversion from established ideaologies. This is why race is flawed as a social categorisation and therefore irrelevant in all circumstances in which individuals in the supposed group do not share a common goal. And usually in these circumstances the particular people sharing the goal do not fit into common understandings of racial categorisations. And they demand re-evaluation by those with preconceived notions of race. So I don't see viewing race as meaningless social construct as a particularly flawed starting point. In fact I think it's the better of those two alternatives.

Once again, stop trying to sell people the products of your own opinion.  People don't take kindly to being told their identity with their race is a flawed belief or idea.  What's flawed is how you manifest your identity that's the problem.  And yes, group identity is, in fact, a facet of individual identity.  Where you come from does, to a certain extent, make you who you are.  That's just the way social beings are. Actually, I found more articles about this whole "personal and social identity" theory, than your own.

I'm starting to realize something.  *laughs*  I'm starting to realize that Andy Pants may or may not hate something about himself.


Quote
Thirdly, I never said I expected anything of anyone. I just sated a personal opinion. Which everyone is getting pissy about. I don't care what meaningless masks you choose to adopt. Whatever gives you something to pass the time. You seem to admit yourself that its only meaningful because people believe it is. That is my only point.

People as opposed to...?  I'm people, and I myself admit it is meaningful.  Also, what fools we mere mortals be, amirite, Andy?


Quote
As for your last paragraph I have never heard anyone be so retarded. Try to read this nice and slowly. The concept which people fail to understand is the one I am talking about. Race is subjective. It is a social construct.

This is what it must feel like to be a primary school teacher.

Really, you should learn when to shut the fuck up while you're still on topic, and ahead.  Seriously, I'm calling you childish in your ranting, quite personally, because you are.  Childish =/= retarded or stupid.  So stop with the put downs.


Quote
Lastly I'd just like to point out that your disagreement is welcome but your disrepect and disapproval is completely unwelcome and unecessary.


You get what you give, Andy.
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caddy

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2009, 01:04:40 PM »

I doubt Mr. Pants is being serious, as he said he loves attention.


No, he obviously can't be serious with that frail, stale argument he's pedaling around.  That's why I don't mind replying to him.  Good entertainment until there's something else on the internet to do.
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yosmark

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2009, 01:15:50 PM »

I doubt Mr. Pants is being serious, as he said he loves attention.


No, he obviously can't be serious with that frail, stale argument he's pedaling around.  That's why I don't mind replying to him.  Good entertainment until there's something else on the internet to do.

Maybe Mr. Pants is a bot a "fun bot" ... or maybe not.
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Kovacs

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2009, 01:23:55 PM »

Very well thought out response Cadster. He'll probably ignore it, like he's been doing for most of the responses in this thread. Luckily, it only makes him look like more of a tool (saying that he's teaching grade schoolers is priceless), when we pointed out the problems with his argument a page or so ago.
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yosmark

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2009, 01:25:42 PM »

Kovacs, that's your post number 672 do something creative.  :glasses9:
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caddy

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Re: The inauguration of Barack Obama.
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2009, 01:29:14 PM »

Very well thought out response Cadster. He'll probably ignore it, like he's been doing for most of the responses in this thread. Luckily, it only makes him look like more of a tool (saying that he's teaching grade schoolers is priceless), when we pointed out the problems with his argument a page or so ago.

I'm expecting him to ignore it.  It'll reinforce the fact that he's the one behaving like a "primary school student".  Matter of fact, my friend Gabbi had to go in today, because her five-year-old threw his chair around the class yesterday, and then threatened the teacher.  I'm guessing Andy isn't too far off from threatening people...apparently again.

I'm sure if he just keeps repeating the same thing, that'll make it true.
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