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Author Topic: Guilt Trip: The "realism" tactic  (Read 2287 times)

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colordeaf

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Guilt Trip: The "realism" tactic
« on: January 21, 2009, 10:40:35 PM »

"Guilt: currently waging war with all the other provinces"

-Amanda Palmer: "A Map of My Soul"

http://wolfcrossing.org/

I discovered this website yesterday. I've been feeling awful since.

The comments on the blog entries on it are being made into "ignorant urban wolf-lover" vs "down-to-earth rancher suffering losses". I've seen this sort of stuff before. Is it just an internet thing to have conversations go this way? I remember the Dead Like Me Online forums being like this in the "News" subforum --- all the posters had a certain political slant. This is the Shadowbox and I expect a slant too.

EDIT: Upon deeper digging, the website is more sensible than the original articles that linked back to it. It's definately the name-calling that got me.
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Re: Guilt Trip: The "realism" tactic
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 03:09:42 AM »

unfortunately, peopel get very stubborn when they feel threatened by something ( be it hunters, or the wolves themselves)
we are having an issue over here at the moment with the proposed re-introduction of wild beavers in the UK...
Anglers (people who catch fish for fun and thus must have the moral high ground) say that they will wipe out the salmon population....which is complete bollocks as they do not eat fish.... and their dams actually make it easier for salmon to swim upstream.......also cited is the deforestation beavers caused in south america ( different species..... uncontrolled introduction to an alien environment, competelely different set of circumstances)

|It will get really interesting when people find out that there has been an active wolf re-introduction programme in Scotland for some years (all strictly controlled and on a very private estate)
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Re: Guilt Trip: The "realism" tactic
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 04:10:29 AM »

we are having an issue over here at the moment with the proposed re-introduction of wild beavers in the UK...

I know this is a serious subject but  ;D ;D ;D

I will now resume pretending to be a mature adult person.
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colordeaf

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Re: Guilt Trip: The "realism" tactic
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2009, 10:22:44 PM »

unfortunately, peopel get very stubborn when they feel threatened by something ( be it hunters, or the wolves themselves)
we are having an issue over here at the moment with the proposed re-introduction of wild beavers in the UK...
Anglers (people who catch fish for fun and thus must have the moral high ground) say that they will wipe out the salmon population....which is complete bollocks as they do not eat fish.... and their dams actually make it easier for salmon to swim upstream.......also cited is the deforestation beavers caused in south america ( different species..... uncontrolled introduction to an alien environment, competelely different set of circumstances)

|It will get really interesting when people find out that there has been an active wolf re-introduction programme in Scotland for some years (all strictly controlled and on a very private estate)

The problem with the US wolf program, the website says, is that local governments aren't in charge of it. Of course, it's a very short road to the democratic/republican/liberal elite mudsling from there. Wolves, unfortunately, are more aggressive than beavers (unless there's been a huge coverup I'm not aware of). Wolfcrossing's members apparently support Sarah Palin for her skill at "wildlife management" (it's not as silly as it sounds, even though I dislike Palin).

How does one combat accusations of "liberal elitism"? I know that most politicans earn more money than regular folks, so spearing a progressive politician for being too rich can be rebutted.
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Alyss

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Re: Guilt Trip: The "realism" tactic
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2009, 11:34:23 PM »

I say bring on the wolves. How else is Princess Mononoke going to become reality?
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Re: Guilt Trip: The "realism" tactic
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2009, 10:15:55 PM »

I feel for the ranchers. I really do. It's easy to dismiss them as exploiters and destroyers of wildlife, but they have grown up into this world and are just trying to have good lives. That said, I imagine droughts, freezes and diseases kill more livestock than wolves are likely to anytime in the near future. They might do well to look into bringing the big dogs back onto the ranches. Livestock guarding dogs can be very effective in mitigating losses.
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Re: Guilt Trip: The "realism" tactic
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 01:14:49 AM »

Last  time I checked  (granted, it's been a while), they  were also  eligible for payment
from the Feds for livestock killed by wolves...  but that actually calls for documentation
and paperwork, and it may not be "full market value".
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colordeaf

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Re: Guilt Trip: The "realism" tactic
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 08:13:50 PM »

I'm glad this thread is getting attention...I was also referring to "realism vs. romanticism" in general that talking heads like to fling around on talk shows.  What are the statistics on livestock deaths?
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85283-071

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Re: Guilt Trip: The "realism" tactic
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 10:33:32 PM »

Last  time I checked  (granted, it's been a while), they  were also  eligible for payment
from the Feds for livestock killed by wolves...  but that actually calls for documentation
and paperwork, and it may not be "full market value".

That whittles the loss down to almost zero relevance, I would imagine.

What are the statistics on livestock deaths?

I'd be curious about that too, in the modern context and historically. I bet the numbers would further reduce the impact of the anti-wolf argument.


Just a guess.
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Re: Guilt Trip: The "realism" tactic
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 10:36:13 PM »

To be fair, these statistics are skewed by the fact that the range and population of wolves makes comparison to coyotes and dogs fairly irrelevant.

Quote
Wolf Predation and Livestock Losses


Wolf Predation Plays Small Role in Livestock Losses in 2005

    * In the continental U.S., health issues such as respiratory problems, digestive problems, calving complications and disease were overwhelmingly the most significant causes of cattle death in 2005.
    * Only 0.11% of all cattle losses were due to wolf predation in 2005.
    * Coyotes killed more than 22 times more cattle than wolves killed that year.
    * Domestic dogs killed almost 5 times as many cattle, and vultures killed almost twice as many cattle as wolves did in 2005.
    * Theft was responsible for almost 5 times as many cattle losses as were lost by wolf predation.
    * Predation by coyotes was the largest cause of sheep loss in 2005, accounting for 23% of all losses, followed by health problems & weather-related issues.
    * In states with wolf populations, an average of less than 2.5% of sheep loss was due to predation by wolves in 2005.
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