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Author Topic: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread  (Read 57699 times)

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fishbulb

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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #210 on: February 03, 2009, 03:59:43 AM »

I have been banned from his forum as well. I am pretty clueless as to why, but it still makes me feel badass.  8)

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Bill H

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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #211 on: February 03, 2009, 04:37:29 AM »

Surely you both jest?
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fishbulb

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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #212 on: February 03, 2009, 04:44:02 AM »

Nope. I got invited to his forum, and then I got banned, a couple of months later. I sent a pm asking for an explanation, never got an answer. Some comments in a thread lead me to believe that "she just doesn't get this community" or my low post count (maybe Alice should join VV?) were the reasons, but I find that hard to believe.

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Rini Martini

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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #213 on: February 03, 2009, 05:13:09 AM »

Then we get people all worked up, being reinforced in their overreactions (with all due respect to Rini Martini) instead of helping them contextualize something that is more like the real world than the indignant deceived like to acknowledge. Then... a silencing? I agree that the post rate is a little ridiculous, but so were many posters when they first popped up on the scene. The kid is a drama major. I honestly don't know what was posted. I haven't read the items of offense, but I bet I know where the power of the lies is coming from.



Admittedly, my last post on this topic was a tad dramatic. Sorry. The whole issue just really got to me, the guy pissed me off. 'The items of offense', which you say you haven't read, really were offensive. He messed with subjects that just shouldn't be messed with. It annoyed me that he was still imposing on this whole community (many of whom had been seriously hurt by him), with his stupidly high post-count. As Kovacs said, it wasn't just distracting, it was overwhelming..... (And hey, I'd also just had a bad day.)

But come on, be fair, I was so not the only one who reacted that way - this is a 15 page thread.

I am now officially retaking my vow not to post on this subject!
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Kenny Wisdom

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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #214 on: February 03, 2009, 05:52:28 AM »

So what you're saying is....

That woman works for Nigella's legal representation, and she's demonstrating in clearest terms
exactly how close you may come to the house before you're in violation of the restraining order...

Right?

In my defence it was a simple misunderstanding. Nigella said, and I quote, "Come any closer, Kenny, and I'll swing for you..."

Now, you have to see her chandaliers to understand where my confusion came from. All sorted now.

100 metres.
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fishbulb

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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #215 on: February 03, 2009, 06:15:21 AM »

Ah! I know a saggy boobs joke as well!  ;D

Grandkid: "Grandma, can I play with your boobs?"

Grandma: "Of course, child, but don't wander off".

Any misinterpretation of Kennies post was accidental and provided the entrée for my horrible joke. TM
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Kenny Wisdom

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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #216 on: February 03, 2009, 01:14:06 PM »

Oi!
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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #217 on: February 03, 2009, 08:54:57 PM »

He and I have talked and he agrees that I made the right move but out of curiosity, how do these things tend to play out on your forum?  I've never been on a forum where no one is banned and I might could learn from that. 

Among the first things I ever discussed regarding the building of violating voices were the limited and specific circumstances under which someone would be denied membership. I have found it difficult to explain, because what I say is at odds with what people predict I mean. For instance, the notion that there was intellectual criteria for membership. I said there was not, but the idea never went away. I stated over and over that interest in such a community environment was the prerequisite for joining. An intent to impede pursuit of the concept was, pretty much, an indication that the interest did not exist. That was never really a problem. People knew where they were going.

The list of exclusionary qualifications was repeated here and there, multiple times, and I stated it to pretty much every joining member. Any behavior that was in violation of the law would not be tolerated. Personal, offline relationships were to be considered in making decisions about membership. Situations in which a person's presence felt threatening to another person was to be grounds for discontinuation of forum participation.

The only adjustments I have made have had to do with privacy. A leading objective of mine was to facilitate open conversation. Depth. A fair percentage of members expressed a desire to participate in this in an environment in which the casual observer (employer, landlord, spouse... whatever) would have difficulty stumbling upon a confessions meant for the community, as opposed to any authority in one's offline life.

Never banning anyone. Only admitting the intellectual elite (subjective as the designation would be). These are hyperboles misdirections designed to allow criticisms that could not otherwise exist.

Now, specifically.

Caddy wanted to be banned. She stated it as a personal objective and fought, tooth and nail, repeatedly, to alienate the necessary people to achieve that goal. I was the principal resistor to the calls for action against her. Caddy is awesome. I have long thought this, and I still do. I still discuss missing her presence on the forum, and I discuss it online as well as in offline social gatherings. I felt that the ideal response to her words was to respond with words. It began to seem like the battle... Caddy's battle, was against me. It may not have been in intent, but it worked that way in practice. a dozen people felt as if they were repeatedly attacked and battered. Eventually, Caddy went on a D-Day type offensive. I didn't even ban her then. I made a thread, asking that she do something differently. She attacked that. Everyone was on me to do something. In the end, Tara de-activated her. I did not object. I was at the point where I felt I would have to do it myself.

I will address Fishbulb directly, as I apprently have not done so yet.

Fishbulb, it has been my greatest frustration that the reasons I de-activated your account (and another) could not be discussed, per request of the person whose privacy offline well-being seemed to, possibly, be jeopardized by your presece. Yours was another I resisted for a long time. A certain other member called me out as absurd for thinking a particular post count glitch attached to your account had nothing to do with you. She suggested it was hostile power lauding with the assistance of someone who was hack-savvy. I figured I should check it out. I did, and the glitch was common to forums on our old host. I only mention this to illustrate how NOT hostile my position on your membership ever was. A certain other member had an offlnie stalking issue. It was very complicated and pervasive. Information from closed sections of the forum was getting back to the stalker. It was suggested that you and Devery were a part of this person's social circle. I made an angry post, but I didn't KNOW anything, so I didn't take any further action. That member, one of my favorites from Shadowbox and Violating Voices, was compelled to leave. As time progressed, your presence was characterized by two things. Hidden lurking and the very, very rare critique of the way someone was being discussed... with a suggestion that such should not be allowed. People were nervous. It was paranoia. I don't doubt that, but I was being approached with concerns that were said to be shutting people down from their communications. I talked to Devery about this on MSN, and I told her that the decision was upsetting for me. Still, I felt compelled to weigh the value of open participation by members who were starting to feel like they might need to change the way they posted. For weeks, I was getting the quiz, and I kept seeing the lurk... hidden, non-posting. The paranoia was contagious, and I broke down. I regret the way it went.

It might interest many of you to know that two hostile racists were also de-activated. That upset me very much, as it seems like an ideological ban, but some members actually felt very threatened. Again, I resisted., but this fell within the parameters I had discussed as basis for banning. Personal attacks and issues of discomfort in the environment by other members. I have to weigh that.

Offensive statements, pictures, concepts, politics... persistent arguing and fighting. None of these things warrant any sort of censorship or restriction and certainly do not warrant banning. Any change in status I have enacted has been a personal struggle for me. If that seems dramatic, then you don't know my heart. I would have invited Devery and Fishbulb back ages ago if it didn't seem like something that would be so logically distasteful to them.

Caddy... I still lobby for your return.
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caddy

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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #218 on: February 03, 2009, 10:41:39 PM »

Caddy wanted to be banned. She stated it as a personal objective and fought, tooth and nail, repeatedly, to alienate the necessary people to achieve that goal. I was the principal resistor to the calls for action against her. Caddy is awesome. I have long thought this, and I still do. I still discuss missing her presence on the forum, and I discuss it online as well as in offline social gatherings. I felt that the ideal response to her words was to respond with words. It began to seem like the battle... Caddy's battle, was against me. It may not have been in intent, but it worked that way in practice. a dozen people felt as if they were repeatedly attacked and battered. Eventually, Caddy went on a D-Day type offensive. I didn't even ban her then. I made a thread, asking that she do something differently. She attacked that. Everyone was on me to do something. In the end, Tara de-activated her. I did not object. I was at the point where I felt I would have to do it myself.


*insert pointless stuff here that isn't about how awesome I am*


Caddy... I still lobby for your return.


*murp*  Hey, I said I was banned.  I didn't say I was wrongfully banned.  I did ask to be banned, because of reasons never to be clearly defined.  I tried to explain, but...fuck it.  I'm not fit for most forums, and I'm surprised I still post here, actually.  Very surprised.

Then again, I thought I would be able to return a few months later, after I calmed down.  I initially didn't want to return later, but two weeks later Tara offered to reactivate me, and I said I didn't want it done.  Then when I asked about it, Tara asked the forum, and there are still a few people who find me distasteful, and would scurry if I returned.  I'm more than resigned to my sentence.  I know what made me rage, but nobody really cared then, and fuck the what now.

Wyatt, I'm never getting back onto that forum, but at least I went out with a *bang*.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #219 on: February 03, 2009, 11:32:24 PM »

You did, and I understand your not returning. I just hope you know how much I wish it hadn't gone that way. My real life home is always open to you if you are in the area, as you will be in any future incarnation of it... including the massive, indoor, dream swamp. I'm thinking 6000 square feet is big enough. I thought it would have to be 10,000 plus. The adjustment is heartening, because it brings the purchase cost of the warehouse to the level of a house purchase.

Did I digress?
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caddy

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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #220 on: February 03, 2009, 11:41:38 PM »

No.  That house sounds cool.  o_O'

You need that swamp in the middle of the house, with leeches and crickets and froggies galore.  Fuck it, dude.  Throw a goddamn gator in there, if need be.
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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #221 on: February 04, 2009, 01:02:19 AM »

The house will go in the swamp, which will go in the warehouse. I was thinking a Cuvier's
Dwarf Caiman might do nicely. They usually only reach about four feet. Most of its life it would be a lot smaller than that. A bird with a resonant call will be necessary as well.
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fishbulb

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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #222 on: February 04, 2009, 03:06:43 AM »


I will address Fishbulb directly, as I apprently have not done so yet.

Fishbulb, it has been my greatest frustration that the reasons I de-activated your account (and another) could not be discussed, per request of the person whose privacy offline well-being seemed to, possibly, be jeopardized by your presece. Yours was another I resisted for a long time. A certain other member called me out as absurd for thinking a particular post count glitch attached to your account had nothing to do with you. She suggested it was hostile power lauding with the assistance of someone who was hack-savvy. I figured I should check it out. I did, and the glitch was common to forums on our old host. I only mention this to illustrate how NOT hostile my position on your membership ever was. A certain other member had an offlnie stalking issue. It was very complicated and pervasive. Information from closed sections of the forum was getting back to the stalker. It was suggested that you and Devery were a part of this person's social circle. I made an angry post, but I didn't KNOW anything, so I didn't take any further action. That member, one of my favorites from Shadowbox and Violating Voices, was compelled to leave. As time progressed, your presence was characterized by two things. Hidden lurking and the very, very rare critique of the way someone was being discussed... with a suggestion that such should not be allowed. People were nervous. It was paranoia. I don't doubt that, but I was being approached with concerns that were said to be shutting people down from their communications. I talked to Devery about this on MSN, and I told her that the decision was upsetting for me. Still, I felt compelled to weigh the value of open participation by members who were starting to feel like they might need to change the way they posted. For weeks, I was getting the quiz, and I kept seeing the lurk... hidden, non-posting. The paranoia was contagious, and I broke down. I regret the way it went.


So, if I get it right, I was banned because:

1. I lurked / hid / didn't post a lot
2. I critiqued the way somebody was being discussed (If you mean what I think you mean, but I'm not even sure what you mean, I defended my friend, yeah, which is a normal thing to do)
3. Somebody was being stalked offline and I might or might not be a part of the stalker's circle (I really don't have a clue who / what this is about)
4. People were nervous
5. People were paranoid

I don't see one legitimate reason to ban somebody in there. And if there is, more than half of this forum would be banned.

Of course people were nervous and paranoid. We just had that whole finneran debacle, and people were probably surprised that I joined your forum. Some might have even thought that I had bad intentions for joining. What's so strange is that I explained to you my reasons for joining VV, my own personal reasons, and I hoped you would value that. Apparently they meant dogshit to you, because I got banned within months, because somebody felt nervous / paranoid about my presence. No warning, no explanation. The explanation, even after repeated requests by me, comes only now, 2 years later. And it's still pretty vague, if you ask me. I understand that you are trying to protect your forum members, and therefore not revealing more details / information, and no offense to anybody personal, but "where niggas speak their mind", where communication is open and challenging, and direct, and functional and honest, without fluff or other distractions like personal feelings and likes or dislikes, as you always have advocated it to be, that's just a big joke, isn' it? It doesn't work like that, when you are dealing with people, and their emotions, and their dislikes and preferences. For me this event and the way you communicated it to me has proven that. Real communication, for me at least, would have involved you pm-ing me and confronting me with these possible allegations, so that I could have given you my side of things / my reasons for not posting a lot at that time / defend myself. Sending somebody to the gulag without any further information or the right to defend themselves is not really communication.
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Devery

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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #223 on: February 04, 2009, 09:20:21 AM »


I will address Fishbulb directly, as I apprently have not done so yet.

Fishbulb, it has been my greatest frustration that the reasons I de-activated your account (and another) could not be discussed, per request of the person whose privacy offline well-being seemed to, possibly, be jeopardized by your presece. Yours was another I resisted for a long time. A certain other member called me out as absurd for thinking a particular post count glitch attached to your account had nothing to do with you. She suggested it was hostile power lauding with the assistance of someone who was hack-savvy. I figured I should check it out. I did, and the glitch was common to forums on our old host. I only mention this to illustrate how NOT hostile my position on your membership ever was. A certain other member had an offlnie stalking issue. It was very complicated and pervasive. Information from closed sections of the forum was getting back to the stalker. It was suggested that you and Devery were a part of this person's social circle. I made an angry post, but I didn't KNOW anything, so I didn't take any further action. That member, one of my favorites from Shadowbox and Violating Voices, was compelled to leave. As time progressed, your presence was characterized by two things. Hidden lurking and the very, very rare critique of the way someone was being discussed... with a suggestion that such should not be allowed. People were nervous. It was paranoia. I don't doubt that, but I was being approached with concerns that were said to be shutting people down from their communications. I talked to Devery about this on MSN, and I told her that the decision was upsetting for me. Still, I felt compelled to weigh the value of open participation by members who were starting to feel like they might need to change the way they posted. For weeks, I was getting the quiz, and I kept seeing the lurk... hidden, non-posting. The paranoia was contagious, and I broke down. I regret the way it went.


So, if I get it right, I was banned because:

1. I lurked / hid / didn't post a lot
2. I critiqued the way somebody was being discussed (If you mean what I think you mean, but I'm not even sure what you mean, I defended my friend, yeah, which is a normal thing to do)
3. Somebody was being stalked offline and I might or might not be a part of the stalker's circle (I really don't have a clue who / what this is about)
4. People were nervous
5. People were paranoid

I don't see one legitimate reason to ban somebody in there. And if there is, more than half of this forum would be banned.

Of course people were nervous and paranoid. We just had that whole finneran debacle, and people were probably surprised that I joined your forum. Some might have even thought that I had bad intentions for joining. What's so strange is that I explained to you my reasons for joining VV, my own personal reasons, and I hoped you would value that. Apparently they meant dogshit to you, because I got banned within months, because somebody felt nervous / paranoid about my presence. No warning, no explanation. The explanation, even after repeated requests by me, comes only now, 2 years later. And it's still pretty vague, if you ask me. I understand that you are trying to protect your forum members, and therefore not revealing more details / information, and no offense to anybody personal, but "where niggas speak their mind", where communication is open and challenging, and direct, and functional and honest, without fluff or other distractions like personal feelings and likes or dislikes, as you always have advocated it to be, that's just a big joke, isn' it? It doesn't work like that, when you are dealing with people, and their emotions, and their dislikes and preferences. For me this event and the way you communicated it to me has proven that. Real communication, for me at least, would have involved you pm-ing me and confronting me with these possible allegations, so that I could have given you my side of things / my reasons for not posting a lot at that time / defend myself. Sending somebody to the gulag without any further information or the right to defend themselves is not really communication.

I never expected this to come up again, especially here on the Shadowbox but, since it has, I feel the need to say a few words about it.

One day last February or March, I received an email from Violating Voices that was sent to all members of the forum and said, in effect, that members who hadn't posted much needed to respond with an explanation in order to avoid being "culled".  Before I could reply, I received a second email telling me that my account at Violating Voices had been de-activated.  I concluded that the forum-wide email had been sent to make it seem that the possible banning of members was being done in a fair manner, when in fact the culling was already a fait accompli.  There was no reason given to me at that time.  Only later did I find out, from Wyatt, that some people on the forum were being stalked and harrassed and that my name, and Fishbulb's, had been mentioned as having possibly been involved in such behavior.  It later became known that neither of us had been involved in any of this. 


I would have invited Devery and Fishbulb back ages ago if it didn't seem like something that would be so logically distasteful to them.


Why do you say that?  Because of the unfair way we were treated by your forum?  I guess I don't understand what you are saying.  Would it be logically distasteful to me for you to invite me back or would it be logically distasteful for me to want to be invited back?  The forum itself was not distasteful to me.  I posted there pretty much the same way I post on this forum.




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Re: THE OFFICIAL ALYSS/MAN ALICE HATE/LOVE/Bitch&Moan thread
« Reply #224 on: February 04, 2009, 09:32:42 AM »

Number three was the reason I was stuck with. When I made a post about it, the information also went back to the stalker. This wasn't just a minor case of harrassment. There was violence involved, and it was suggested that confronting the situation any more directly than I did would exacerbate the problem. It felt like a situation that had to be taken seriously. I felt like I was limitied in my choices of what to do. Given the choice between possibly unfair and possibly dangerous, as ridiculous as it might seem to you, I picked possibly unfair. It certainly didn't seem like you had any serious participatory interest in the forum, so it didn't feel like I'd be ruining your day.
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