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[Agonistes]

I don't know how being gay or disabled or Pacific islander or White or Dyslexic or ADD makes someone more historically significant.

in the case of oscar wilde, gertrude stein, virginia woolfe......those are the few that come to mind whose gayness had something to do with their historical significance, in this case their writing, but yeah.  i once got thrown out of a junior year english class for asserting lewis carrol MIGHT have used opium, and the teacher said no historical figures ever used drugs....so i'm kind of glad the gay parts won't be glossed over like that.

[N.U.]

If Sir Edmund Hillary were gay, would that make his climb to the peak of Everest more significant, less significant, or just as significant?

I can see being gay as significant in the case of Oscar Wilde, as he was jailed for being gay, and Alan Turing, because he was castrated for being gay, but that seems less important as Oscar Wilde being a genius playwright and Alan Turning permanently breaking the ENIGMA code during WWII.

[Agonistes]

If Sir Edmund Hillary were gay, would that make his climb to the peak of Everest more significant, less significant, or just as significant?

I can see being gay as significant in the case of Oscar Wilde, as he was jailed for being gay, and Alan Turing, because he was castrated for being gay, but that seems less important as Oscar Wilde being a genius playwright and Alan Turning permanently breaking the ENIGMA code during WWII.

i agree with your meaning, and i only disagree semantically, really.  it's more significant that oscar wilde was gay because it's important to know the stigmas of the time and how he got around it (and didn't), and the small nods to homosexuality in his works.  it's important to know how they were treated in their time and the attitudes towards teh gay, and how that formed their personalities and particular bits of genius.

honestly i see it as more incidental that turing was gay, although i think it's important to learn how he was treated for it.  but, in his case, the gay had no bearing whatsoever on his contribution to history.  and of course, climbing a mountain is no more or less significant, gay or straight, it's awesome either way.  so, singling out an historical figure just for being gay isn't at all necessary to me, but i do think a small amount of exploration into the gay lives of some of history's gays is beneficial to students.  for one, it mentions gay in a light that is not negative, and for two, learning about the shit gays have had to put up with helps attitudes not be in the dark like they used to be about it.  NOT talking about it on purpose is the problem, and has been for a long long time, in other words.  if it's there, why not mention it?

in other words, i don't think it should ever be a focal point in classes, or anything like that.  but i do think it should be allowed to stand with other facts to present the whole picture.  i can't think of a single gay artist/writer/artisan whose work wasn't to some degree influenced by their gayness, and i don't think it's a terrible idea to mention that in a classroom.  plus, it's significant that someone in various cultures that would basically put gays to death, survived and even excelled and put their name in the book to begin with, in spite of 'stubbornly' being a taboo thing.

[CottonCandy]

I think that if you take the approach that you talk about the personal lives or backgrounds of any significant person, it would be good to mention them being gay like you'd mention any other information about their family or social surroundings.

I think it's more important to consider with creative professions since the way gays are treated in society might filter into what they're creating, however if you only ever mention the creative gay people it will give the impression many people have that gay people are somehow more creative... I think that is also why Turing's gayness seems more coincidental.

And no, I don't think being gay makes something more amazing, unless there is some sort of extra barrier they have to face because of it. If the first person climbing mount everest was gay it wouldn't matter, as there isn't an extra obstacle for it. You don't have to mount a member of the opposite sex before you can top a mountain. However, whenever US or whatever country will get their first gay president or prime minister it will be a big deal much like it was a big deal when Obama became the president, or when my home country got the first female president. It shows you can be taken seriously and it's not a big deal to be gay.

[N.U.]

If it is looked at from a societal viewpoint of, then, yes, it is absolutely valid, but a fine line is being walked by dividing up history using such arbitrary means. It makes as much sense as "National 'Famous Person Whose Name Starts With J' month".

I hope this isn't coming across as insensitive because that's not my intent.

[Indja]

just tell them he is a really butch lesbian.

He shaved, so he could probably pass as one

EDIT - I just looked at a picture I took on our last conversation to see how much he could actually pass as a lesbian, and though he is still wubbly and nommy, I reeeeaaally wish he still had a beard



Vs.



*le sigh*

even he looks happier with a beard!

I know right xD But I'm not home for another three weeks, so he'll be nice and stubbly by then. I hate kissing him when he's all smooth >.<

[Agonistes]

If it is looked at from a societal viewpoint of, then, yes, it is absolutely valid, but a fine line is being walked by dividing up history using such arbitrary means. It makes as much sense as "National 'Famous Person Whose Name Starts With J' month".

I hope this isn't coming across as insensitive because that's not my intent.

it doesn't sound insensitive, mainly because i agree.  but i guess my point is that not mentioning things based on our own standard of relevance or appropriateness, we might end up guilty of the same omission these folks are complaining about.and really, given thought, the 'reveal' i speak of mainly applies to artists, because that's the sort of person whose life (from their sexual preference to their astrological sign and what it might have meant to them) is relevant to their work, directly.

in other words, it's not necessary to say to a second grader, 'this famous picture of god bringing adam to life was painted by michaelangelo, an almost decidedly gay man living in florence, italy during the height of the italian renaissance.'  you would be fine with stopping right before the comma in that sentence, and you should avoid having to explain the 'bacchus' to them.  whereas, i don't see a lot of harm in a teacher or text explaining, 'michaelangelo was accused of a homosexual relationship during the height of pope whomever xxiivxiviix's inquisition and totally sidestepped that shit while he was painting the last judgement on the sistene chapel's altar wall.'

i dunno, maybe that's a bad example, but it's late, and all i could think of was michaelangelo.

[Indja]

I actually think it is important to highlight the role of LGBT people in history, if for nothing else than to give LGBT kids role models from all walks of life. I'm not saying we should have one set of grey text books and one set of rainbow ones for all the super-awesome queer facts (though now I say it the more I want it...), but just acknowledging that actually we don't live in a totally straight world and that rocking a particular field of work is not dependent on sexuality.

[imaginary friend]

the times, they are a-changin':     http://www.npr.org/2011/07/16/138192036/hundreds-of-troops-march-in-gay-pride-parade?ft=1&f=


#@!

[CeeGBee]

I actually think it is important to highlight the role of LGBT people in history, if for nothing else than to give LGBT kids role models from all walks of life. I'm not saying we should have one set of grey text books and one set of rainbow ones for all the super-awesome queer facts (though now I say it the more I want it...), but just acknowledging that actually we don't live in a totally straight world and that rocking a particular field of work is not dependent on sexuality.

THE RAINBOW MINUTE

(^ That's a link...)
Produced by Judd Proctor & Brian Burns at WRIR LP 97.3 FM, Richmond.   

[slyvia k]

just from reading my facebook feed or seeing how some of my peers treat one another, it seems like a lot of girls are a bit obsessed with lesbianism or anyhow sapphic things, even if it is just pointing out that in that picture you look like a couple or blabla boobs comments (i'm not sure i'm making sense, i don't know how to explain! but it's that sort of complicity giggle whenever lesbian related stuff is said or inferred). i mean, something that goes over the ''let's make out at a party cause a guy will check us out'', but that happens between girls even when there are no guys around.
i was thinking about myself and honestly, i am never flirty nor make sexual jokes or have this sort of curiosity about men...
*mumble*

[CottonCandy]

just from reading my facebook feed or seeing how some of my peers treat one another, it seems like a lot of girls are a bit obsessed with lesbianism or anyhow sapphic things, even if it is just pointing out that in that picture you look like a couple or blabla boobs comments (i'm not sure i'm making sense, i don't know how to explain! but it's that sort of complicity giggle whenever lesbian related stuff is said or inferred). i mean, something that goes over the ''let's make out at a party cause a guy will check us out'', but that happens between girls even when there are no guys around.
i was thinking about myself and honestly, i am never flirty nor make sexual jokes or have this sort of curiosity about men...
*mumble*

I don't think I've ever particulary had a thing where "lesbianism is cool, let's make out". I had a phase when I was around 18 where I'd kiss everyone when drunk but it was more to do with "I'm drunk and love everyone, you're all awesome!" than trying to pull guys because girls kissing is hot.

I'm quite comfortable with myself, I can recognise women being beautiful and sexy and I do feel a bit hot under the collar when I see sexy scenes in the L Word, but if I imagine myself kissing a woman or doing more intimate things I do not get turned on, at least not in the same way if I would imagine my boyfriend or other sexy male. I wonder if those girls are a bit uncertain about themselves but try to explore as a bit of a joke?

[Agonistes]

just from reading my facebook feed or seeing how some of my peers treat one another, it seems like a lot of girls are a bit obsessed with lesbianism or anyhow sapphic things, even if it is just pointing out that in that picture you look like a couple or blabla boobs comments (i'm not sure i'm making sense, i don't know how to explain! but it's that sort of complicity giggle whenever lesbian related stuff is said or inferred). i mean, something that goes over the ''let's make out at a party cause a guy will check us out'', but that happens between girls even when there are no guys around.
i was thinking about myself and honestly, i am never flirty nor make sexual jokes or have this sort of curiosity about men...
*mumble*

it's the attention that it gets them, and you're right, i think it's mostly the male attention they are after in the end.


i've always been astonished at the shit girls will put themselves through, and the behaviors, for guy attention.  don't they realize they have it already?

[tanqgirl]

just from reading my facebook feed or seeing how some of my peers treat one another, it seems like a lot of girls are a bit obsessed with lesbianism or anyhow sapphic things, even if it is just pointing out that in that picture you look like a couple or blabla boobs comments (i'm not sure i'm making sense, i don't know how to explain! but it's that sort of complicity giggle whenever lesbian related stuff is said or inferred). i mean, something that goes over the ''let's make out at a party cause a guy will check us out'', but that happens between girls even when there are no guys around.
i was thinking about myself and honestly, i am never flirty nor make sexual jokes or have this sort of curiosity about men...
*mumble*

it's the attention that it gets them, and you're right, i think it's mostly the male attention they are after in the end.


i've always been astonished at the shit girls will put themselves through, and the behaviors, for guy attention.  don't they realize they have it already?

generally no they dont, OR the ONE guy they want to notice them, isnt

[buttercup.]

My ex came out as a college lesbian.
This struck me as rather sexist, but other than that...
does this mean he came out of the closet with the closet still attached to him or what?