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Author Topic: Gayness  (Read 285077 times)

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the CAPS guy

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2009, 11:08:32 PM »

Drag Queens at the 801 Cabaret is an interesting read. It shares the stories of drag queens researched by two lesbian researchers (Taylor and Rupp). I read pieces of it as part of a research methodologies class, so most of my reading was based in reviewing and critiquing the methodologies used. (Also very interesting, how to negotiate the researcher/researched power dynamic reflexively, etc.)

Anyway, the book is basically drag queens telling their stories, in their own voices as much as possible. Regardless of your thoughts on drag (and whether you think Judith Butler appropriated it, exploited it, showed it's value in Gender Trouble) - I think it's worth checking out of the local library.

My two pennies have been tossed.

I guess i can't have access to that book but it seems interesting.

So, you read it, what did you found out?

I'd love to read your opinion about what you found out on the book.

According to the book, are drags centered people? Or they just live for the show hidding theirselves?
Are they happy all the time? Or they want to die when nobody is near them?

What a best resource than a book.

No access to the book? For why? I would mail it to you if I owned it because I am a book commie and I think everyone should be able to read anything they want.

I only read excerpts, like I said because it was for a research class so the focus was on the research methods and how they impacted the data - the difference between getting audience volunteers for focus groups when the drag queens announced vs. when the researchers announced, etc.

Anyway, from what I did read it demonstrated that drag queens are human. Some are self-centered. Some are generous. Some are drug addicts. Some are anti-drugs. Some are HIV positive. Some are HIV negative. Many are destitute. Some were in a good space and happy when the research was done and some were not.

I'm not sure if you meant to be ironic with the comment about a book being the best resource, so I'm going to respond gingerly. I'm new here, don't know you, you don't me. Reading has not been my only experience with drag. My father used to judge drag shows in Utah, I've been to plenty of drag shows - both drag queen and drag king - and have friends who do drag, both king and queen again. And my experience has been similar to my limited experience with the book I mentioned.

People who do drag are human. Everyone I have met and spoke with does drag for a different reason. Certainly, some drag performers are self-centered, egotistic, drama fiends ... as are many other types of performers. What drives someone to dress in drag and prance around on stage? I don't know, I imagine the answer is multiple and varied, but I would guess it's not too far from what what drives people to dress is costume and act in plays, or perform their music, or display their art. Some people are driven by drag/performance/music, some people are attention-seeking/self-centered/trying to work out Freudian issues in public.

Drag can be transgressive. It can challenge conceptions about what gender is and how it is constructed in our society. Drag can also be highly entertaining. It can be a great show. And drag can be degrading. It can contribute to the reinforcement of traditional gender stereotypes of the idea that those who do drag are freaks to be paraded around. I've seen some brilliant drag and I've seem some drag that I thought was just plain crass.

I don't think it's as cut and dry as saying that people who do drag are always putting on a show. In some ways, we all perform our gender. If you perform it "well" heteronormative society rewards you, if you perform it "poorly" heteronormative society has clearly punitive consequences.

And this is much longer than I intended. Sorry about that.

If you are interested in the book, or in Butler's Gender Trouble - let me know and I will keep an eye open at local bookstores. I am serious about mailing it if you can't get it. I'm the book commie.

first of all, welcome to the board, this is a open board, it means that  you can think and say whatever you think, respecting the other members of course...
My comment wasn't meant to be ironic, i mean, the books supposed to be the best resource, because they formed part of a process when different people checked the information to find if it has fundaments or not.

i think you have some good points, drags are human, but i'm sorry, i can't convince myself that drag queens are ok, it's not nobody's fault.  i mean, bad people is human, too, they need to be loved, they has needs, they have to work, etc.  well, i guess i can see drag queen as an act, like brian do sometimes, it's great then, but being a drag as a lifestyle, i won't approve it never because i think they have a serious problem with their identity, they need to look for help. that's all.

btw, thank you for your your kindness about looking for the book, i am not really interested right now, and if i change my mind i think i can look for it over the internet, you don't need to bother, but thank you, anyway!

oh, i forgot to introduce myself... my name is hugo, i'm mexican and i'm a drag....







...not! just kidding. please, forgive my bad english grammatic.

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Lyzardly

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2009, 12:14:48 AM »

Hi Hugo and thanks for the welcome. I'm Lyz, I'm German-Serbian-Scotch-Irish-American living on the US east coast. Pleased to meet you.

I disagree that drag as a lifestyle always indicates that people have identity issues, but I think identity is a slippery thing. Even if we list all the things that make up our identity (sexuality, political leanings, race, ethnicity, religion, etc.) there is something left over that can't be quantified in that matter. The excess is what makes you react differently to your life than someone else might. I think we exceed out identities.

And tanqgirl... Eddie Izzard=complete awesome IMHO. He recently did an impromptu gig in NYC, advertised only on Twitter. Decided on Sunday to do a gig on Tuesday, tickets were cheap and he was brilliant. Love him, love him, love him.
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dangerpants

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2009, 01:19:47 AM »

Hugo, I love you, but sometimes you are a little ignorant.
Please do not over-generalize. You have only met a few drag queens, and all that you have met were bad. That's your experience. That doesn't mean that ALL drag queens are vulgar (Oh, and just in case you forgot: normal people can be just as vulgar, with or without the lacy panties).
And if you mean to suggest that transvestism is wrong, you should probably rethink this. Maybe you should do some research for your own edification and figure out why TVs dress as the opposite gender before taking such a strong stance. If you think it's wrong because baby Jesus told you so, then that's your prerogative. But don't start with the negativity and the name-calling, because THAT'S wrong. You shouldn't judge something you don't understand.
I'm sorry you didn't meet nice drag queens... Self-centered and attention seeking people can be very irritating and I'm sure that's why you took that opinion on this subject. I suppose it's not entirely fair to you, because now it's harder for you to see that this is just people being people being people. People do things that some of us find strange, but it's perfectly normal (skydiving, anyone? I wouldn't skydive for the world, but to some people it's nothing...). I'm sure you have a few habits that people would think odd, and so do I. But so long as they are healthy (or at least not directly life threatening), and they are not encroaching on other people's rights or privacy, there's no reason not to do what you feel most comfortable and joyful doing.
Please don't take this as mean or angry or whatever, I'm really not (and I'm not trying to insult you, but I think I might come across as insulting sometimes).
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the CAPS guy

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2009, 02:10:17 AM »

Hugo, I love you, but sometimes you are a little ignorant.
Please do not over-generalize. You have only met a few drag queens, and all that you have met were bad. That's your experience. That doesn't mean that ALL drag queens are vulgar (Oh, and just in case you forgot: normal people can be just as vulgar, with or without the lacy panties).
And if you mean to suggest that transvestism is wrong, you should probably rethink this. Maybe you should do some research for your own edification and figure out why TVs dress as the opposite gender before taking such a strong stance. If you think it's wrong because baby Jesus told you so, then that's your prerogative. But don't start with the negativity and the name-calling, because THAT'S wrong. You shouldn't judge something you don't understand.
I'm sorry you didn't meet nice drag queens... Self-centered and attention seeking people can be very irritating and I'm sure that's why you took that opinion on this subject. I suppose it's not entirely fair to you, because now it's harder for you to see that this is just people being people being people. People do things that some of us find strange, but it's perfectly normal (skydiving, anyone? I wouldn't skydive for the world, but to some people it's nothing...). I'm sure you have a few habits that people would think odd, and so do I. But so long as they are healthy (or at least not directly life threatening), and they are not encroaching on other people's rights or privacy, there's no reason not to do what you feel most comfortable and joyful doing.
Please don't take this as mean or angry or whatever, I'm really not (and I'm not trying to insult you, but I think I might come across as insulting sometimes).

it's OK, comment accepted. i knew i will have to deal with different opinions and i love it because it made me open minded.
a thing to change: all drags are not vulgar, as all gays doesn't need to wear make-up.

i just can't accept drags, i can accept transexuals, but not drags. i think it's a personal believe.

i think i am not ignorant because i CAN differentiate a polite nice person from a self-centered, egocentric person. i'm not talking about that,
if i ever met a polite drag queen, i will still think it's not ok.

i'm not against a personality, i'm against a decision.
being a drag is a decision, you didn't borned as a drag, you choosed to be a drag.
you can't choose be gay or lesbian, but you can choose to be a drag,
i don't like people who have chosen to be drags, i can talk with them, i can be polite with them.

I think that being gay is normal, being lesbian is normal, being transexual is normal... but being a drag queen is... not good to me.

as i've said drag queen as a profession is fine, but as a lifestyle is not fine, TO ME.

i PERSONALLY believe that they don't think as a girl, i think they think as boys trying to be a girl.

a man will never be equal as the awesomeness of a woman...

it could be funny as many of you think, it could be classy, or fashion, whatever you want, but THEY. ARE. NOT. A. WOMAN.

i'm not talking about baby jesus values, i'm just talking about nature's values...

you can be gay because you feel it. nobody can deny it.
you can be lesbian because you feel it.
you can be a man but  physical and mental a woman, because you feel it.
but being a distroted image of a woman, and trying to pretend that everything it's ok just because you are polite, classy or fashion? it's just can't fit with me.



anyway, i have a whole life to live, i'm only 23, i'm just glad i can speak about the way i think in this moment.
enjoy the show, help the drags.

call to the help the drags fundation to 01 900 HELP THE DRAGS to help the drags to be JUST actors.

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Miss Sahara

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2009, 04:53:10 AM »


i'm not talking about baby jesus values, i'm just talking about nature's values...

you can be gay because you feel it. nobody can deny it.
you can be lesbian because you feel it.
you can be a man but  physical and mental a woman, because you feel it.
but being a distroted image of a woman, and trying to pretend that everything it's ok just because you are polite, classy or fashion? it's just can't fit with me.



Hugo, I see were you're coming from. Drag queens may seem appalling to you because the mask is so obvious and they are not trying to be themselves without anything to lean on, right?

Anyway. Mostly everone wears a mask in one way or the other.
I think in some cases it might be unhealthy, but I don't think this is something only applying to drag queens! Sometimes masks can help you to be more yourself and deal with shit. Deal with life. Like, comedians make jokes to deal with life. actors pretend to be other people to deal or even escape. musicians make music to deal with life. And if they're off the stage doesn't mean they stop converting everything they see into music, so i don't think the amount of your time you spend doing what you do is crucial.

If you choose to deal with life by being a drag queen, so it is YOUR WAY, how you see things, and maybe the way your truth works. i wouldn't jugde anybody for doing things the ways they do, unless they do harm to other people....

But to be honest, i only  have very few experiences with drag queens, so please correct me, if i'm wrong.
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Andy Pants

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2009, 09:21:24 AM »

Do you associate yourself with gay music and media like 'queercore'?
What's queercore?  Someone should explain this to me?  What's gay music?  What defines it as gay, versus just GOOD?  I guess I listen to like... Tegan & Sara... and Ani... but I also listen to techno and African and the occasional rap and emo and Indian hip hop and...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/UHrLEHLK1lQ&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/UHrLEHLK1lQ&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/N2bLLVA_TGk&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/N2bLLVA_TGk&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/j41atOB070k&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/j41atOB070k&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/WOh_isx7Kz0&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/WOh_isx7Kz0&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>


Queercore is a defined subculture of music specifically dealing with gay themes. Gay music is music that has gay themes. What defines it as gay is it's subject matter. Whether it is good or not is a matter of personal opinion and probably varies wildly depending on the artist. I hope this answers your question. I am unsure however as your last question didn't really make any sense.

Also EVERYONE MUST KNOW THAT 'LIMP WRIST' IS ONE OF THE GREATEST PUNK BANDS EVER
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caffineoddities

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2009, 09:59:37 AM »

So, are you gay? Are you LGBT, undecided or other?
I'm Gay

Do you think these categories are useful or oppressive?
I think Beth discussed this really well in her most recent blog. I think useful. There's something I don't understand about people who say they don't want to be restricted by a label. I think people get caught up in stigma attached to calling yourself gay/bi/lesbian and should focus more on making it their own word. I'm Gay in the sense i'm attrcted to the same sex, but my understanding of being gay will differ from everyones. I don't see the need to split hairs.

When did you first know you were gay?
There was an old sepia print of a man in a bathtub in the garage when i was maybe 4. I fancied him.

Are you in or out of the closet? If it's the latter then how did you come out?
Mostly, theres still some people i havn'e actively told. I basically gave myself a date to tell my mother. She came in to wake me up for school and told her.

Also, how did people react and what changes took place in your life (if any) when you did come out?
My mother reacted well/ "oh, oh okay. Oh i think i need to sit down. Well you kow that I still love you and that I will always love you don't you?"

What does being gay mean to you? Do you 'wear' it? and How much does it define your personality?
I don't let it define me but it's a part of me. I don't go to gay pride and i'm not a big fan of it, but if i wasn't gay i can't help but feel I'd be a very different person. I think "not letting it define you" can be taken too far in some instances and sets the example that being really open with your sexuality is something to be frowned upon because you are "letting it define you". I'm aware of it, it's a part of me but not all of me.

Do you fall into, break or try to avoid gay stereotypes?
They don't really register. I'm me and that means occasionally being more stereotypical and sometimes less. I don't think being a complete stereotype is necessarily a bad thing so long as your being true to yourself and just happen to fall one by doing so.

Do you associate yourself with gay music and media like 'queercore'?
I read towleroad.com but thats about it. Its good for broad spanning gay news, polical and social not just celebrity trype stuff.

Do you have people you look up to in the LGBT community and if so, why?
Generally the people who do go out and protest and fight for their rights - i'm a little to timid and not politically involved to do so but i respect those who can and do

Have you ever encountered prejudice? If so, what kind?
I came from a small town. I once had a group of rough looking guys chase me down the main street calling me a faggot and hurling rocks.
Some boys at school dragged me down to the bottom of the agricultural plot and pinned me to the ground while one rubbed cow shit in my face calling me a fag and a queer.
This was all before i came out, i dressed a little differently to other kids.

And Scattermoon i just wanted to tell you I think you're a really inspiring person and there's something about the quality of your person that lends itself to a lot of respect (sorry i know that seems really bullshitty but you know *bumps fist against chest* it's from the heart)
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Andy Pants

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2009, 10:08:38 AM »

My favourite quotes from this thread so far.

I'm not attracted to men because I say I'm gay, I say I'm gay because I'm attracted to men.
It's like a supermarket... it's not because you put a label on a can that says "beans" that there's automatically beans in them. You see what's in the can, go "hm, looks like beans" and then put a label on them that says "beans".
Ok, that was a weird comparison.

I love that description. That's seriously one of the most insightful explainations I've heard.

don't think it's as cut and dry as saying that people who do drag are always putting on a show. In some ways, we all perform our gender. If you perform it "well" heteronormative society rewards you, if you perform it "poorly" heteronormative society has clearly punitive consequences.

Bam, I have a feminist friend who says the same thing. "Gender is a matter of performance".

I also don't know why so many people can't understand the concept of 'wearing' their sexuality. Some people do, some people don't. Whatever they are. Some people are very vocal about it, others aren't. But I think if someone can tell your sexuality from the first time they meet you, then you could describe yourself as 'wearing' it.
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reality doesn't give a damn about our plans.

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Cynicism in nothing but intellectual cowardice. It's basically you not taking the time to deal with what is

Andy Pants

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2009, 10:23:35 AM »


i'm not talking about baby jesus values, i'm just talking about nature's values...



Wait, so you're implying it's natural for particular genders to wear particular kinds of clothing, makeup or costumes? That it's a matter of genetic predisposition or natural law which is being violated? That doesn't make any sense.
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reality doesn't give a damn about our plans.

Quote from: Henry Rollins
Cynicism in nothing but intellectual cowardice. It's basically you not taking the time to deal with what is

Indja

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2009, 02:44:01 PM »

I'm sure I could talk about the big ol' conversation that I missed, but I just really wanted to clear something - I don't know any drag queens, I just said I like how they look. I like weird, OTT make-up and men's legs in tights and outrageous costumes and all that.
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Cirque

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2009, 02:57:53 PM »

I'm sure I could talk about the big ol' conversation that I missed, but I just really wanted to clear something - I don't know any drag queens, I just said I like how they look. I like weird, OTT make-up and men's legs in tights and outrageous costumes and all that.

Any drag queen acts I've seen have been pretty darn funny.
What I like is the fact that they openly admit they are men (well the ones I've seen [on video of course, not a real show]).
Like come on, Jackie beat is pretty fricken awsome

dangerpants

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2009, 03:28:45 PM »

By the way, Hugo, you mentioned that Brian V dresses in drag sometimes for a show...

http://www.matthewshepard.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Voices_Brian_Viglione

Maybe it'd help to read it from his perspective? It's confusing when you're not a part of it. Brian is straight. As far as I know, he doesn't want to be a woman.

And going against social construct is not going against nature. Dresses and lipstick don't grow on trees as such. Society says men must wear pants and not skirts.
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Alyss

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2009, 05:36:53 PM »

let's see...

So, are you gay? Are you LGBT, undecided or other?
I consider myself gay, BUT I refuse to let this define me.
You've failed. Just like I've failed to be defined by being straight. Every aspect of your personality is a definition, retard.
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yosmark

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2009, 07:10:01 PM »

let's see...

So, are you gay? Are you LGBT, undecided or other?
I consider myself gay, BUT I refuse to let this define me.
You've failed. Just like I've failed to be defined by being straight. Every aspect of your personality is a definition, retard.

Ho ho ho ho ho the alyss dude kicks in... a capacitor?
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[CPCTC]Mrs.Picklez

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Re: Gayness
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2009, 10:16:04 PM »

let's see...

So, are you gay? Are you LGBT, undecided or other?
I consider myself gay, BUT I refuse to let this define me.
You've failed. Just like I've failed to be defined by being straight. Every aspect of your personality is a definition, retard.
What the hell crawled up your ass and died?
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Drinking coffee in the sack.
Zombies she does hack,
There's bologna in her slacks,
She's Panamaney,
Totally insaney,
PANAMANIAAAAAC.
Those are the facts.
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