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Author Topic: Palin is.....  (Read 37061 times)

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CeeGBee

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #75 on: July 12, 2009, 05:28:17 PM »

As for the sexual harassment... It would make things much easier and in my opinion more fair to businesses if the victim could only sue the employee that was actually doing the harassment.  This would be a huge weight off the shoulders of the companies and would spare everyone the mandatory sensitivity training since it would only be their ass on the line if they did it.
On the surface, a fair plan, but it leaves out a big piece of a properly-working system:

1. Woman goes to work (...could be a man, but much less often)

2. Co-worker or supervisor hits on her, makes inappropriate remarks, just won't leave off...

3. WOMAN GOES TO THE OFFENDER'S SUPERVISOR AND REPORTS THE PROBLEM.

-if that doesn't work, one can then address the matter through the legal system, but this way
the company has both the opportunity and an incentive to take appropriate steps before making
a big public issue of what may be simply an isolated problem.  If they fail to act, or (for example)
take action against the complainant, they're on the hook.

If it's just the individual (as it was for many years), the company has great incentive to ignore
the problem and to fire troublemakers.



...and no, the typical manufacturing employee doesn't make minimum wage, but it does force up the
entire nationwide pay-level-structure.  (I have nothing against minimum wage, btw.)
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virtual~mary

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #76 on: July 13, 2009, 02:03:41 PM »

You have not yet addressed my belief that bad monetary policy is a huge portion of what made this recession so much larger than normal but this particular piece of business cycle theory is a very important part how how I think the economy works.  Do you agree that tighter credit would by itself do a lot to deter the over leveraging that helped make our economy so unstable?

stepping in here to say i wholeheartedly agree. more than bad monetary policy, i would call it convoluted in the extreme, historically as well as recently, and recently downright criminal. yes, it’s a huge part of what made this particular recession so devastating and precisely because it’s so instrumental.

normally, tighter credit would do more in the short term to stabilize things, but by itself and in the situation we're currently in, i don’t think it’s enough. then there’s the old idea of a big fiscal (government) stimulus package, which takes longer and carries its own risks. what choice do we really have but to try a combined monetary and fiscal policy approach? the parties generally fall along the lines of one or the other, but i just don’t think it’s an either/or situation we’re in.


Cheddars Cousin

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #77 on: July 13, 2009, 02:58:20 PM »

Let me take this opportunity to tell you Tiervexx, I would totally go nondairy for you.

85283-071

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #78 on: July 13, 2009, 03:40:54 PM »

Through what mechanism would tighter credit be instituted? How might we assure that geographically prejudiced standards do not come into play?
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Tiervexx

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #79 on: July 13, 2009, 05:48:19 PM »

You have not yet addressed my belief that bad monetary policy is a huge portion of what made this recession so much larger than normal but this particular piece of business cycle theory is a very important part how how I think the economy works.  Do you agree that tighter credit would by itself do a lot to deter the over leveraging that helped make our economy so unstable?

stepping in here to say i wholeheartedly agree. more than bad monetary policy, i would call it convoluted in the extreme, historically as well as recently, and recently downright criminal. yes, it’s a huge part of what made this particular recession so devastating and precisely because it’s so instrumental.

normally, tighter credit would do more in the short term to stabilize things, but by itself and in the situation we're currently in, i don’t think it’s enough. then there’s the old idea of a big fiscal (government) stimulus package, which takes longer and carries its own risks. what choice do we really have but to try a combined monetary and fiscal policy approach? the parties generally fall along the lines of one or the other, but i just don’t think it’s an either/or situation we’re in.

The best short term solution is to just flood the economy with cash which is what they are doing.  Of course this is terrible for long term stability because we are just replacing one bubble with another.

I think the best longer term solution (one to two years or so) is to do just the opposite.  Tighten credit by a lot and balance the budget.

I think the real reason why they won't do this is because it would be a political nightmare.  In the short run this would look like another crash but it would also flush out the bad investment and "bubbles."  A couple years from now the economy will look much better if we do this but the short run panic might scare a lot of politicians.

It is worth mentioning that this is basically what we've recommended to other nations when they were struggling.  Balance the budget, don't inflate the currency, and don't prop up failing businesses.  This advice has worked wonderfully all over the world, from China to Chile yet we won't follow our own damn advice and we'll pay for it.

Let me take this opportunity to tell you Tiervexx, I would totally go nondairy for you.

Awwwww, thanks!

Through what mechanism would tighter credit be instituted? How might we assure that geographically prejudiced standards do not come into play?

This is the kind of thing the Federal reserve can do in a heart beat if it wanted to.

In the absence of a Central bank a market determined interest rate would also tighten credit.
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85283-071

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #80 on: July 13, 2009, 08:27:32 PM »

In essence, regulation.
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Tiervexx

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #81 on: July 13, 2009, 10:02:13 PM »

In essence, regulation.

wut?

Tightness of credit has nothing to do with regulation.
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Cheddars Cousin

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #82 on: July 13, 2009, 10:07:13 PM »

It is market driven and it will work.

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #83 on: July 13, 2009, 10:40:35 PM »

In essence, regulation.

wut?

Tightness of credit has nothing to do with regulation.

It sounded as if you were suggesting that such become the case.

...and Cheddar, if market driven tightening of credit will work, then we have nothing to worry about except for the fact that we're just leaving it to its cyclical nature again. A cycle that is justified by the fact that there will always be scavengers to grab up the gems from the rubble and rebuild is a failue.
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Tiervexx

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #84 on: July 13, 2009, 10:57:01 PM »

In essence, regulation.

wut?

Tightness of credit has nothing to do with regulation.

It sounded as if you were suggesting that such become the case.

...and Cheddar, if market driven tightening of credit will work, then we have nothing to worry about except for the fact that we're just leaving it to its cyclical nature again. A cycle that is justified by the fact that there will always be scavengers to grab up the gems from the rubble and rebuild is a failue.

It sounds like you are a bit confused of what I mean by credit.

I'm talking about the price on borrowing money.  The interest rate.  While the Federal Reserve is in place it has an iron fist on the interest rate.  By market driven interest rate we mean what would happen if we did not have a central bank.  Market driven tightening of credit obviously can't coexist with the Federal Reserve.

Sorry if this is insulting your intelligence but your post associating my statements with tightening credit with regulation suggested there may have been some confusion.

I did say however that tightening credit could reduce the need for regulation on how much leveraging banks of various kinds can use.
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virtual~mary

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #85 on: July 14, 2009, 05:01:26 PM »

You have not yet addressed my belief that bad monetary policy is a huge portion of what made this recession so much larger than normal but this particular piece of business cycle theory is a very important part how how I think the economy works.  Do you agree that tighter credit would by itself do a lot to deter the over leveraging that helped make our economy so unstable?

stepping in here to say i wholeheartedly agree. more than bad monetary policy, i would call it convoluted in the extreme, historically as well as recently, and recently downright criminal. yes, it’s a huge part of what made this particular recession so devastating and precisely because it’s so instrumental.

normally, tighter credit would do more in the short term to stabilize things, but by itself and in the situation we're currently in, i don’t think it’s enough. then there’s the old idea of a big fiscal (government) stimulus package, which takes longer and carries its own risks. what choice do we really have but to try a combined monetary and fiscal policy approach? the parties generally fall along the lines of one or the other, but i just don’t think it’s an either/or situation we’re in.

The best short term solution is to just flood the economy with cash which is what they are doing.  Of course this is terrible for long term stability because we are just replacing one bubble with another.

I think the best longer term solution (one to two years or so) is to do just the opposite.  Tighten credit by a lot and balance the budget.

I think the real reason why they won't do this is because it would be a political nightmare.  In the short run this would look like another crash but it would also flush out the bad investment and "bubbles."  A couple years from now the economy will look much better if we do this but the short run panic might scare a lot of politicians.

“flooding” the economy with cash is not working, even in the short term, and unemployment is continuing to rise. plus, the “political nightmare” you mentioned is just starting to unfold with economists freaking left and right.

while I agree that tightening credit (higher interest rates) and balancing the budget both need to happen (even though this will hit the poor and lower middle classes the hardest just like it did when the bubble popped and as it always does), that alone is not going to cut it this time. we need new and improved (i know, lol, yet again) fiscal policies to go along with the monetary policy adjustments. jobs and new “industries” must be created and promising existing ones infused with money or it really doesn’t matter what brilliant monetary change we make.

Quote
It is worth mentioning that this is basically what we've recommended to other nations when they were struggling.  Balance the budget, don't inflate the currency, and don't prop up failing businesses.  This advice has worked wonderfully all over the world, from China to Chile yet we won't follow our own damn advice and we'll pay for it.

hmm. yes, chile is relatively prosperous now, i suppose. too bad all those people had to be tortured, kidnapped and murdered under pinochet’s junta (backed by the chicago boys) in order for capitalism to ultimately “flourish.” i recommend The Shock Doctrine by naomi klein for more insight. 

and what of our gaping trade deficit? friedman is wrong!


Tiervexx

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #86 on: July 14, 2009, 05:15:27 PM »

You have not yet addressed my belief that bad monetary policy is a huge portion of what made this recession so much larger than normal but this particular piece of business cycle theory is a very important part how how I think the economy works.  Do you agree that tighter credit would by itself do a lot to deter the over leveraging that helped make our economy so unstable?

stepping in here to say i wholeheartedly agree. more than bad monetary policy, i would call it convoluted in the extreme, historically as well as recently, and recently downright criminal. yes, it’s a huge part of what made this particular recession so devastating and precisely because it’s so instrumental.

normally, tighter credit would do more in the short term to stabilize things, but by itself and in the situation we're currently in, i don’t think it’s enough. then there’s the old idea of a big fiscal (government) stimulus package, which takes longer and carries its own risks. what choice do we really have but to try a combined monetary and fiscal policy approach? the parties generally fall along the lines of one or the other, but i just don’t think it’s an either/or situation we’re in.

The best short term solution is to just flood the economy with cash which is what they are doing.  Of course this is terrible for long term stability because we are just replacing one bubble with another.

I think the best longer term solution (one to two years or so) is to do just the opposite.  Tighten credit by a lot and balance the budget.

I think the real reason why they won't do this is because it would be a political nightmare.  In the short run this would look like another crash but it would also flush out the bad investment and "bubbles."  A couple years from now the economy will look much better if we do this but the short run panic might scare a lot of politicians.

“flooding” the economy with cash is not working, even in the short term, and unemployment is continuing to rise. plus, the “political nightmare” you mentioned is just starting to unfold with economists freaking left and right.

while I agree that tightening credit (higher interest rates) and balancing the budget both need to happen (even though this will hit the poor and lower middle classes the hardest just like it did when the bubble popped and as it always does), that alone is not going to cut it this time. we need new and improved (i know, lol, yet again) fiscal policies to go along with the monetary policy adjustments. jobs and new “industries” must be created and promising existing ones infused with money or it really doesn’t matter what brilliant monetary change we make.

I think you are looking for a new and improved policy that might not exist.  What has worked the most efficiently before and will work the best again (in all likelihood) is to jack up credit and balance the budget than let the market fix itself.  The more creative the leadership gets the more disastrous the results often are with the business cycle.

Quote
It is worth mentioning that this is basically what we've recommended to other nations when they were struggling.  Balance the budget, don't inflate the currency, and don't prop up failing businesses.  This advice has worked wonderfully all over the world, from China to Chile yet we won't follow our own damn advice and we'll pay for it.

hmm. yes, chile is relatively prosperous now, i suppose. too bad all those people had to be tortured, kidnapped and murdered under pinochet’s junta (backed by the chicago boys) in order for capitalism to ultimately “flourish.” i recommend The Shock Doctrine by naomi klein for more insight. 

and what of our gaping trade deficit? friedman is wrong!

Naomi Klein's book includes some of the most atrocious jumps imaginable.

Pinochet tortured and murdered people for his own power.  It was not till after he put an iron fist on Chile that he begged the Chicago boys for help because his economic policies were not working.  Trying to associate the Chicago boys with Pinochet's violence is totally irresponsible because had they not offered him economic advice the people of Chile would have just been that much poorer.  Offering advice to Pinochet was the nicest thing they actually could have done for the people of Chile.

If you look at Friedman's actual work, than compare them to the interpretations Naomi Klein runs with for her book you'll see that she is either intentionally lying or has the reading comprehension of a 9 year old.  She literally uses the exact opposite meaning of many of his statements.

In particular she tries to associate Friedman's economic ideas with things he directly and persistently argued against such as corporate welfare and the Iraq war.

Because many republicans pretend to be interested in Milton Friedman's work many liberals like to blame him for everything bad republicans do, independent of what Friedman actually said.  Fact is that almost nothing Friedman advocated has been put in play here.  This should absolve him from blame.
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J_Beck

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #87 on: July 14, 2009, 11:08:04 PM »

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CeeGBee

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #88 on: July 14, 2009, 11:21:48 PM »



"Oh    My   Gosh!  YOU'RE SARAH PALIN!!!   Would you autograph my child?"  ...in permanent marker?
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Pope Totalfrog

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #89 on: July 15, 2009, 06:29:48 AM »



Noooooo...Mummy that is the lady I see in my nightmares - don't let her near me
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