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Author Topic: Palin is.....  (Read 38100 times)

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CeeGBee

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #90 on: July 15, 2009, 10:31:22 AM »



Noooooo...Mummy that is the lady I see in my nightmares - don't let her near me
Ya know, I just realized how little photoshop-skill would be required to replace that sharpie  ^-^
with the Giant Sacrificial Dagger from the Black Altar of Cheney!   :o

OH NOOOOEZ!!!   EVIL RITUAL!!!
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Is it bad that what she said made perfect sense to me?

music box

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #91 on: July 15, 2009, 12:12:40 PM »

oh please...

virtual~mary

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #92 on: July 15, 2009, 12:43:06 PM »

I think you are looking for a new and improved policy that might not exist.  What has worked the most efficiently before and will work the best again (in all likelihood) is to jack up credit and balance the budget than let the market fix itself.  The more creative the leadership gets the more disastrous the results often are with the business cycle.

yes, i am looking for a policy that does not yet exist, because what will work “the best again” will “in all likelihood” be in favor of those it has always worked best for. meanwhile the economy is being eroded from the bottom up with segments of “the middle” also acutely feeling it and having to adjust their lifestyles.

it could be argued that the “disastrous results” you mention aren’t fully realized yet not because our leadership hasn’t been creative enough, but because it hasn’t been accountable enough.

Quote
Naomi Klein's book includes some of the most atrocious jumps imaginable.

Pinochet tortured and murdered people for his own power.  It was not till after he put an iron fist on Chile that he begged the Chicago boys for help because his economic policies were not working.  Trying to associate the Chicago boys with Pinochet's violence is totally irresponsible because had they not offered him economic advice the people of Chile would have just been that much poorer.  Offering advice to Pinochet was the nicest thing they actually could have done for the people of Chile.

If you look at Friedman's actual work, than compare them to the interpretations Naomi Klein runs with for her book you'll see that she is either intentionally lying or has the reading comprehension of a 9 year old.  She literally uses the exact opposite meaning of many of his statements.

In particular she tries to associate Friedman's economic ideas with things he directly and persistently argued against such as corporate welfare and the Iraq war.

Because many republicans pretend to be interested in Milton Friedman's work many liberals like to blame him for everything bad republicans do, independent of what Friedman actually said.  Fact is that almost nothing Friedman advocated has been put in play here.  This should absolve him from blame.

cmon tiervexx, you’re going to need to substantiate your claims a bit more if you want to convince me that klein’s meticulously researched and referenced thesis (74 pages of endnotes) is little more than the ramblings of a liar who can’t read.

here's what klein had to say about the claim that friedman opposed the invasion of iraq and that she called him a “neo-con:”

“In April 2003, Friedman told the German magazine Focus that “President Bush only wanted war because anything else would have threatened the freedom and the prosperity of the USA.” Asked about increased tensions between the U.S. and Europe, Friedman replied: “the end justifies the means. As soon as we’re rid of Saddam, the political differences will also disappear.” Clearly this was not the voice of anti-intervention. Even in July 2006, when Friedman claimed to have opposed the war from the beginning, he remained hawkish. Now that the U.S. was in Iraq, Friedman told The Wall Street Journal, “it seems to me very important that we make a success of it.”

All of this has nothing to do with my book, however. In The Shock Doctrine, I describe the invasion and occupation of Iraq as the culmination of Friedman’s ideological crusade because he was America’s leading intellectual favoring the privatization of the state – not because he personally supported the war, which is irrelevant. For more than five years Iraq has been the vanguard of this radical privatization project. Private contractors now outnumber U.S. soldiers and corporations have taken on such core state functions as prisoner interrogation."

you might find this to be of interest as well:

"If you are concerned that I am exaggerating Friedman’s support for the brutal regime of Augusto Pinochet, read a letter Friedman wrote to Pinochet.  If you are suspicious that I am making disaster capitalism seem more conspiratorial than it is, read the minutes  from a meeting that took place at the Heritage Foundation just two weeks after the levees broke in New Orleans. It lays out 32 “free market solutions” for Hurricane Katrina and high gas prices, many of which have been championed by the Bush Administration.

The thesis of The Shock Doctrine was not born of whimsy but of four years of research. Debra and I put these documents online because we want educators, students and general readers to move beyond an admittedly subjective version of history – as all histories are -- and go straight to the source. We invite you to explore these documents, send us ones we missed, and come to your own conclusions."



Tiervexx

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #93 on: July 15, 2009, 04:15:38 PM »


“In April 2003, Friedman told the German magazine Focus that “President Bush only wanted war because anything else would have threatened the freedom and the prosperity of the USA.”

This quote is only describing Bush's motives, not Friedman's.  Milton Friedman had met with Bush and wanted to believe that Bush/Cheney had the best intentions.  The wording is poor but I think Milton might have intended to include a "he believed anything else...".

Asked about increased tensions between the U.S. and Europe, Friedman replied: “the end justifies the means. As soon as we’re rid of Saddam, the political differences will also disappear.” Clearly this was not the voice of anti-intervention. Even in July 2006, when Friedman claimed to have opposed the war from the beginning, he remained hawkish. Now that the U.S. was in Iraq, Friedman told The Wall Street Journal, “it seems to me very important that we make a success of it.”

There is a fundamental difference between the belief that we needed to go in there verses believing that now that we are there we are kind of stuck.

Personally I just want to get out ASAP (as does Milton's son David whom I'm a bigger fan of) but I can understand why someone would be worried about the fallout from a sudden withdraw even if they did not want to be in there in the first place.

So Milton was more hawkish than his son but still not nearly as much as someone who wanted to go in there from day one.

All of this has nothing to do with my book, however. In The Shock Doctrine, I describe the invasion and occupation of Iraq as the culmination of Friedman’s ideological crusade because he was America’s leading intellectual favoring the privatization of the state – not because he personally supported the war, which is irrelevant. For more than five years Iraq has been the vanguard of this radical privatization project. Private contractors now outnumber U.S. soldiers and corporations have taken on such core state functions as prisoner interrogation."

It is true that Milton Friedman's influence probably lead to more private contractors being used but this is still different than wanting to go to war in the first place.  No matter how anti-war you are you must have an interest in how it is fought when you don't have the power to just pull out as we would wish...

you might find this to be of interest as well:

"If you are concerned that I am exaggerating Friedman’s support for the brutal regime of Augusto Pinochet, read a letter Friedman wrote to Pinochet.

Okay, I just read that letter.  It gives Pinochet economic and monetary policy advice.  Not a single word of it is advocating any kind of violence.  There is talk of a "shock" policy but he is talking about rapid economic change, not any sort of violence.

Did you even read that letter before linking it to me?  If you did you probably would not have since it does not go against anything I said.  It confirms what I already knew and supported, he just gave him economic advice.  I stand by his decision to do that 100%

If you are suspicious that I am making disaster capitalism seem more conspiratorial than it is, read the minutes  from a meeting that took place at the Heritage Foundation just two weeks after the levees broke in New Orleans. It lays out 32 “free market solutions” for Hurricane Katrina and high gas prices, many of which have been championed by the Bush Administration.

Once again, Milton is just giving economic advice that has nothing to do with violence.  The Bush administration gave his ideas lip service but did a lousy job of acting on them.  If Klein thinks Milton hoped and prayed for something like Katrina (which I think she does) than she has yet to present even a scrap of evidence for that.

If Milton offering "free-market" advice for Katrina qualifies as a conspiracy than that would have to mean that politicians purposing big government solutions for Katrina must be a big socialist conspiracy!

Clearly neither one qualifies as even remotely conspiratorial.

The thesis of The Shock Doctrine was not born of whimsy but of four years of research. Debra and I put these documents online because we want educators, students and general readers to move beyond an admittedly subjective version of history – as all histories are -- and go straight to the source. We invite you to explore these documents, send us ones we missed, and come to your own conclusions."

I read the documents.  He is clearly only trying to offer solutions to problems.  The fact that some of these problems emerged after disasters would only be relevant to her conspiracy theory if Milton actually conspired to cause them himself, which is completely unsupported.
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virtual~mary

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2009, 05:20:39 PM »

of course i read the letter before linking it. in my estimation, klein is trying to establish that they had a friendship that was collaborative and "supportive." that pinochet's regime was brutal is well-known. could friedman have been completely oblivious to the true nature of the powerful man he was giving such strong economic advice to? perhaps. but if that's true wouldn't it be foolish to offer the kind of advice he himself admitted would cause "severe difficulty?" remember too, that i am thinking of it in context of an entire book (researched thesis) as opposed to just her statement/letter i quoted out of context. 

as far as friedman's support of the iraq war personally, klein herself admits it's irrelevant anyway because she believes it was an ideological crusade. she was merely responding to her detractors.

did you, in fact, read the book? do you know what she means by a "shock" policy? if you do, you might think of it less as conspiracy theory and more as education in strategic "corporatist" policies aimed at global dominance.



Tiervexx

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #95 on: July 15, 2009, 06:42:38 PM »

of course i read the letter before linking it. in my estimation, klein is trying to establish that they had a friendship that was collaborative and "supportive." that pinochet's regime was brutal is well-known. could friedman have been completely oblivious to the true nature of the powerful man he was giving such strong economic advice to? perhaps. but if that's true wouldn't it be foolish to offer the kind of advice he himself admitted would cause "severe difficulty?" remember too, that i am thinking of it in context of an entire book (researched thesis) as opposed to just her statement/letter i quoted out of context.

I think that his, more so than anything else she talks about is what is not fair to Milton Friedman.

When Pinochet asked for advice Milton certainly could have ignored it BUT had he done that the people of Chile would have suffered MORE not less.

And had Milton written an insulting letter to Pinochet he might have just ignored Milton's advice and left the people of Chile to their poverty.

If a Dictator asked me for economic advice I would have done the same thing no matter how brutal the dictator because that is probably the only thing I could possibly do to ease the burden on that dictator's people.  I'm sure that Milton was thinking the same thing.

as far as friedman's support of the iraq war personally, klein herself admits it's irrelevant anyway because she believes it was an ideological crusade. she was merely responding to her detractors.

Correct me if you think I am misunderstanding but she is trying to say that Milton helped craft the ideology that lead to war.

I totally disagree with this because it is a huge jump to go from "government is bad" to "lets use government to go to war, the ultimate expression of state power."

Jesus had a much bigger role in crafting Republican ideology than Friedman did.  And I actually have met soldiers who fancies themselves holy warriors.  Meanwhile I have never met a soldier who thought they were going to war for glorious Friedman Capitalism.

An association between Christianity and the war in Iraq would still be a huge jump but it would make a lot more sense and be much closer to reality IMO than blaming Milton Friedman for it.

Milton Friedman never preached violent take downs of anything.  Meanwhile many republicans really do think that their Christianity commands them to stand up to tyrants like Saddam.

did you, in fact, read the book? do you know what she means by a "shock" policy? if you do, you might think of it less as conspiracy theory and more as education in strategic "corporatist" policies aimed at global dominance.

I read parts of it and thought "WHAT THE FUCK?!"
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virtual~mary

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #96 on: July 17, 2009, 03:36:35 PM »

Correct me if you think I am misunderstanding but she is trying to say that Milton helped craft the ideology that lead to war.

she is asserting that the intellectual underpinnings of "disaster capitalism" (which briefly means an economic re-engineering following a crisis situation when everyone is in shock) can be traced directly to the university of chicago's economics department under milton friedman.

Quote
I read parts of it and thought "WHAT THE FUCK?!"

read the whole thing cover to cover with the notes and some auxillary research and you'll really think what the fuck?!!?!!

Tiervexx

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #97 on: July 17, 2009, 04:18:15 PM »

Correct me if you think I am misunderstanding but she is trying to say that Milton helped craft the ideology that lead to war.

she is asserting that the intellectual underpinnings of "disaster capitalism" (which briefly means an economic re-engineering following a crisis situation when everyone is in shock) can be traced directly to the university of chicago's economics department under milton friedman.

When something bad happens all sides try to recommend what they think will help the most.  The capitalist suggestions that got the most press came from Milton Friedman but as I said earlier, plenty of socialist suggestions have come from other sources so why isn't there also a "disaster socialism."

When people are frightened by something all sides of politics try to reach out to them both out of good intentions and selfishness.  This is a very damn old part of the political game.  Sure conservatives do it but so do liberals.  When Katrina hit many liberals screamed for bigger government institutions as well.

From what I've seen so far Klein's idea of the "Shock Doctrine" is comparable to a 12 year old waking up to the reality that politicians lie.
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CeeGBee

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #98 on: August 01, 2009, 01:46:23 PM »

I started to put this down there in the Poetry Thread, but since it's not
my own original work, I put the links here.  The material speaks for itself.
(...and yes, it's worth clicking, especially the second...  I think she has some untapped talent here...)

Link The First

Link The Second
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J_Beck

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #99 on: August 01, 2009, 04:01:53 PM »

I started to put this down there in the Poetry Thread, but since it's not
my own original work, I put the links here.  The material speaks for itself.
(...and yes, it's worth clicking, especially the second...  I think she has some untapped talent here...)

Link The First

Link The Second

I didn't know he did the tweets  ;D
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CeeGBee

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #100 on: August 02, 2009, 01:03:21 AM »

I started to put this down there in the Poetry Thread, but since it's not
my own original work, I put the links here.  The material speaks for itself.
(...and yes, it's worth clicking, especially the second...  I think she has some untapped talent here...)

Link The First

Link The Second

I didn't know he did the tweets  ;D
Admit it, you've heard/read stuff that was intended as poetry, that wasn't as good...
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J_Beck

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #101 on: August 02, 2009, 01:12:39 AM »

I started to put this down there in the Poetry Thread, but since it's not
my own original work, I put the links here.  The material speaks for itself.
(...and yes, it's worth clicking, especially the second...  I think she has some untapped talent here...)

Link The First

Link The Second

I didn't know he did the tweets  ;D
Admit it, you've heard/read stuff that was intended as poetry, that wasn't as good...

Maybe she found her calling? 
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"It's the game of life. Do I win or do I lose? One day they're gonna shut the game down. I gotta have as much fun and go around the board as many times as I can before it's my turn to leave."

CeeGBee

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #102 on: August 02, 2009, 01:25:58 AM »

I started to put this down there in the Poetry Thread, but since it's not
my own original work, I put the links here.  The material speaks for itself.
(...and yes, it's worth clicking, especially the second...  I think she has some untapped talent here...)

Link The First

Link The Second

I didn't know he did the tweets  ;D
Admit it, you've heard/read stuff that was intended as poetry, that wasn't as good...

Maybe she found her calling? 
Sara Palin: Right Wing Radical Beat-Poet...   It does kinda have a ring to it, doesn't it?
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J_Beck

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #103 on: August 02, 2009, 01:27:16 AM »

I started to put this down there in the Poetry Thread, but since it's not
my own original work, I put the links here.  The material speaks for itself.
(...and yes, it's worth clicking, especially the second...  I think she has some untapped talent here...)

Link The First

Link The Second

I didn't know he did the tweets  ;D
Admit it, you've heard/read stuff that was intended as poetry, that wasn't as good...

Maybe she found her calling? 
Sara Palin: Right Wing Radical Beat-Poet...   It does kinda have a ring to it, doesn't it?

Shatner could be the next Tina Fey
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"It's the game of life. Do I win or do I lose? One day they're gonna shut the game down. I gotta have as much fun and go around the board as many times as I can before it's my turn to leave."

CeeGBee

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Re: Palin is.....
« Reply #104 on: August 02, 2009, 01:31:47 AM »

Hey, The Shat is nobody's "next"....
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