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[Musings]

Kovacs:

If given the choice, would you worry more about people paying too much on things that you don't understand or people who had to choose between "buying a webcast" of an artist or going to a movie?

I think in one case, people have a lot of money and have a bigger choice -- bid or not bid, bid past a certain amount, view the webcast or not.

In the other case, people still have a choice, but it's more constricted.  It's the choice I make when I decide to go to a concert -- my interest level has to be high enough (pretty high) to overcome the other shit I will miss out on because I spent that money on a concert ticket.

I'm not sure if that's more or less of a gamble for AP, because she has to bet that 1,000 fans who have credit cards and $10 to burn and are available at that time and a high enough interest level will want to see her webcast, as opposed to 1 out of those 2,000 fans or whatever that can watch will have enough money to pay whatever high amount for whatever thing she sells.  Someone who knows more about economics should figure that out.

The paid webcasts would definitely have to be more like shows, maybe more planned and organized, with more advance warning, than the freeform things they are right now -- which for me is the charm of a webcast as opposed to a concert. 

I'm not sure if webcast-for-fee is the better business model -- it probably is, actually, but in terms of worrying about exploitation, I just don't see it. 

[lentower]

webcasts are a lot more green

moving amanda and associates about
(it can be anywhere to just her, to one helper, to a bus load)
is a larger carbon footprint

[Kovacs]

I'm at work, and although our internet policy allows "limited blogging" (huh? really?), I'm not sure this falls under that statment. I'm going to write this very quick, so I apologize if I miss anything or am unclear.

Somewhat Briefly But Not Really:

- In terms of what is going through these peoples heads when purchasing these things, and my understanding of it. Like I said, it's a judgment on my part. I own it. I feel very passionately about "love the art, respect the artist". The artist is a person, treat them as such. Since music seems to be moving towards a more intimate setting overall, this is becoming more important. Even the power imbalance. Treat each other as people. Worship the music, the art, let it fill your life. Do not let your image of the creator of said art do the same thing. What people are paying for crosses this line (this very, very blurry line, especially in this case) in my opinion, in a few examples. I don't see how hero worship (ideally the healthy kind, you could argue) didn't come into play as part of their reason for buying.

Do these auctions encourage that behavior, or not? Can the "I'm not your bitch" statment hold up when on the other hand allowing fans to indulge in such a way? These are questions and not judgments, I want to know what you all think.

- In terms of the paid webcast being exploitation, if you go with that argument, then charging money for anything that isn't currently being charged is exploitation. The idea is a new model, and what I'm trying to discuss. I suggested it because I see it as being much much cleaner and more sustainable than relying on the hardcores to pay large amounts of money for (limited) items. And it would be much more applicable to other artists.

Musings, to answer your question bluntly I wouldn't "worry" about either of those things ( ), but replace "buying a CD" with "buying a webcast" and you'll see my point. The second part of your statment could be applied to virtually anything you would charge for. The idea would to be to make it affordable and fair, and still have the cash head directly to the artist. Instead of providing something for free that relies on hardcores for sustainablility.

- Incidentally, the paid webcast isn't my idea, it's Jack Whites, bundled with a whole concept: http://www.wired.com/underwire/2009/07/jack-whites-third-man-records-opens-the-vault-to-subscribers/

Check it out. I'm insanely curious to see the financial rewards.

- Good discussion. Apologies if I've offended, particularly with the use of the word fanatic. Like I said, I feel strongly about giving artists due respect, especially with the wonderful direction music seems to be taking (more personal interaction, which can be easily ruined by people overdoing it, see Tegan and Sara and what they were forced to do regarding their fan base).

[Musings]

I don't think either side is being exploited, I just misread your first post as being, "poor people with lots of money to expend on what I think are stupid purchases" and wanted to point out that if you charge everyone, there would be someone else getting shafted by maybe not being able to watch, who I have a little more sympathy for.

Jack White has an older, and bigger, fan base, no?  I'm not sure.

More later.

[Rob]

Who you callin' old!?

[Musings]

You.   Very directly and intentionally -- you.

[beth of all trades]

- Good discussion. Apologies if I've offended, particularly with the use of the word fanatic. Like I said, I feel strongly about giving artists due respect, especially with the wonderful direction music seems to be taking (more personal interaction, which can be easily ruined by people overdoing it, see Tegan and Sara and what they were forced to do regarding their fan base).

I don't find any of what you've posted offensive, K.  A lot of this I've been thinking about myself, trying to find a balance.  Not ready to actually SAY what I'm thinking (as I'm a tease like that) but I have to ask... what WERE T&S forced to do regarding their fan base?  I'm a new (like, in the past six months) T&S fan and I'm not aware of the history.

[CeeGBee]

AFP Pledge Week.....   


thassallahmsayin...

[RottenTart]

I am so stoked that Amanda posted something pertaining to this subject.

 I agree with a bit of what everyone has to say here.

I was reading a web article that was referencing the auctions she had done, (and the amt of cash that she had grossed) and people were slamming her like mad. Some people were questioning the legitimacy of her being an artist, and saying that if she were a true artist she would be a starving one. Starving?
Wait, what?
Okay, hold up... Why on earth should anyone have to be a starving artist to be a great one?

Since I was 7 I have loved David Bowie (my mom played his records over Cos head phone while I was in the womb, so I was damned from the start). He is my Idol, and never once have I question the legitimacy of him being an artist. I seriously doubt that anyone has ever looked at him and questioned that. In Ventura (close to where I live), there is a girl who plays the Gypsy Violin on Main St. She is insanely good, and I chuck money into her Violin case as she stomps a foot covered in sleigh bells. I love her. If she had a CD I would buy it- the same time I went to Salzers records to pick up my "Pinups" album. Both legitimate artists, and both working hard to make a living, and both getting my money.

Why, when money comes into the picture do we stop seeing the artist as an artist? Why do we feel like we need to question them like we are a part of the Geheime Polizei? Does anyone remember when Left Eye explained that TLC went completely bankrupt while they still had a chart topping record? Who else was stunned by that? Courtney Love, Left Eye, and various other artists that were screwed by the industry. The truth is ugly, and the music business is hard, and we need to support the artists that we love especially when they come directly to us.

If a fan wants to support the artist and buy a signed photo, glass dildo, t-shirt, show ticket, or half eaten turkey sandwich we should be happy(Also, I don't think this falls under fanatic, unless they are stealing things out of Amanda's garbage and looking for locks of hair to pin in the Dresden Dolls shrine that they have comprised out of pictures of Amanda, said garbage, and Broken drum sticks...Though I do understand that there can be a need for balance). We should say, "Hurray! The artist we love isn't being drilled for the money that we give them that will never see!" Look at Post War Trade and how amazing that is. Hand in hand with the musical artist, and the artist fan- I applaud this. Others would be ticked and say that it's copywright infringement, but they are just included in the merch. GENIUS!


Amanda and the Dolls have become part of my life. Not just my record collection, but my life( as many of you fellow Shadowboxers understand they provide songs in the soundtrack to our life). Over six years of my life infact, and I will support Amanda when she gets outrageously wealthy, or if she becomes totally poor and I have to send money orders to her flat in Boston while she bebcasts on a soapbox.

[Tiervexx]

An artist is worth every penny that someone is willing to give them and it is only exploitation if giver is mentally impaired (but if they got intoxicated on their own than it's their fault).

The "Leave a Tip" link is broken for me.  I held shift to disable the pop-up blocker but the window that comes up is blank.  What am I doing wrong?

[Kovacs]

I don't find any of what you've posted offensive, K.  A lot of this I've been thinking about myself, trying to find a balance.  Not ready to actually SAY what I'm thinking (as I'm a tease like that) but I have to ask... what WERE T&S forced to do regarding their fan base?  I'm a new (like, in the past six months) T&S fan and I'm not aware of the history.

This is far from gospel (since I can't remember where I read it, an interview somewhere, blog maybe). It was my understanding they were asked by their label to stop visiting fans after shows, for safety reasons. There was more than one "fight", nothing too serious where anyone was injured, but physical scuffles, instigated by fans. There's a youtube video of someone climbing up on stage to hug one of them. A large dude. Not cool.

This was coupled with them knowingly "taking a step back" compared to how they interacted in the past (hanging out after shows etc). However, they seem to visit fans still in secure ways, which is probably more of a testament to their dedication to their fans than what their label would like.

[Cheddars Cousin]

I was reading a web article that was referencing the auctions she had done, (and the amt of cash that she had grossed) and people were slamming her like mad. Some people were questioning the legitimacy of her being an artist, and saying that if she were a true artist she would be a starving one. Starving?
Wait, what?
Okay, hold up... Why on earth should anyone have to be a starving artist to be a great one?

As long as I'm around, Amanda will never be in danger of being a starving anything.

[The Angel Raliel]

I was reading a web article that was referencing the auctions she had done, (and the amt of cash that she had grossed) and people were slamming her like mad. Some people were questioning the legitimacy of her being an artist, and saying that if she were a true artist she would be a starving one. Starving?
Wait, what?
Okay, hold up... Why on earth should anyone have to be a starving artist to be a great one?

As long as I'm around, Amanda will never be in danger of being a starving anything.

ahhh self sacrifice.......

[Kardemumma]

I don't have a lot to add. People have made some very valid points.
I much prefer giving my money directly to Amanda than wondering about the middle man. I also wouldn't mind going trough a lot of trouble for her, and even if she did have loads of cash I would still get her a place to stay and some food to eat if she ever came to my part of the world. The way she connects with fans is an important part of what makes her special. She's broke, she needs money (to live and to make art) and she's been honest about it. I love that. I'm broke too, but I don't mind coming up with the money for shows, DVD's, t-shirts etc. because I feel I get so much in return.

And I would just like to say that very rarely have I seen a conversation like this on a message board. People actually have things to say and they are saying them in an intelligent way and with respect. What a great community.

[Jo Just Go Nameless]

I don't find any of what you've posted offensive, K.  A lot of this I've been thinking about myself, trying to find a balance.  Not ready to actually SAY what I'm thinking (as I'm a tease like that) but I have to ask... what WERE T&S forced to do regarding their fan base?  I'm a new (like, in the past six months) T&S fan and I'm not aware of the history.

This is far from gospel (since I can't remember where I read it, an interview somewhere, blog maybe). It was my understanding they were asked by their label to stop visiting fans after shows, for safety reasons. There was more than one "fight", nothing too serious where anyone was injured, but physical scuffles, instigated by fans. There's a youtube video of someone climbing up on stage to hug one of them. A large dude. Not cool.

This was coupled with them knowingly "taking a step back" compared to how they interacted in the past (hanging out after shows etc). However, they seem to visit fans still in secure ways, which is probably more of a testament to their dedication to their fans than what their label would like.

From my knowledge, I am pretty sure this is true. On the tour for The Con, we waited outside in the cold in hope of getting my gf's poster signed and all the band/support acts came out and Tegan and Sara actually got smuggled out into the tour bus and drove away. At the time I thought it was pretty rude, as there were only a handful of people waiting outside and one of the band could have just told them that the girls weren't going to be coming out to sign, instead of hanging out, seeing them and letting them still stand out in the cold. Although then I was made aware that they were told NOT to come out because it wasn't safe for them. Which is scary to think that their own fans would be a threat to them. They do seem to meet fans before shows now more often, which means the hardcore that queue for hours get to say hey and it weeds out most of the idiots who may get drunk and invade space/cause fights etc.