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[Agonistes]

some things i thought of....


--auctions ARE a free webcast.  you don't have to buy anything to enjoy them.  i watched the auction, myself, with glee, but i didn't buy anything because i was not completely in the black at the moment.  however, i had a blast watching it anyway, and laughed a lot.

--someone is always going to be left out, no matter what gets sold.  something will come along that someone cant afford, it's what happens when you ask for money for stuff.  sometimes people will be able to afford concert tickets, but not a tee shirt.  sometimes people won't be able to get tickets because they are sold out or they just had to drop two hundred bucks on their dog for emergency anal stitches or something.  sometimes people won't be able to buy the glass dildo, or the signed book, or the tee shirt amanda used to wipe sweat off beth's decolletage, or whatever...no matter HOW much they might want it.  that's life; sometimes, people will be left out.  however, a webcast is a webcast, and with all the clever people out there in internet land, i am certain that an ex post facto copy of the webcast will more than likely be available for those who had to miss it due to cash, time zone, or age/job/money/stingy parent restrictions.  they just might miss the song request portion, or the interactive parts, or whatever part was live, and the incentive to pay.  the point is, with a webcast, paid download, open and shameless plea for cash without any real reason, passing a hat at a concert, or homemade porn, or whatever is done for money, the object is trying to reach as many as possible who can reach back with cash.  not exclusion, surely.......just business.

--someone will always be available who can, or will, pay.  hell, i tried to offer money without incentive on twitter when amanda tweeted a couple months ago she was trying to pay rent in the first place.  my rationale was, it was the least i could do after the near religious experience i had at a concert last spring (long story, but it was what i needed at the exact time i needed it--and someone else bought the tickets for me that night, incidentally).  the thing about creative financing is it has to be creative.  i couldn't imagine amanda doing regular paid webcasts; she might as well sign up to be on a shitcom on tv, and shitcan being a musician at all if she goes that way.  maybe learn some magic tricks or something, or a tap dancing segment...heh, kidding.  but i can see how a few, or one of them would work.  much like the auction worked; although again, couldn't see one happening every week.  the thing about creative financing is, the answer's in the question; it has to stay creative.  and, if i have come to expect one thing from ms. palmer & crew, it is creativity.

--as far as being young and missing out on some paid events......well, i hate that, but again, there is enough free out there to keep one happy, i would think.  here i go, i hate hearing myself even say this, but 'when i was sixteen', i had to sneak into the violent femmes concert.  i had to beg a misfits tee shirt off a girlfriend, and i also sneaked into a cyndi lauper concert.  i sold my jacket to go to one show, and it has been whispered that i liberated a twenty from mom's purse now and then to manage this or that venue.  i didn't actually officially buy myself a concert ticket until i was well into my twenties, i am pretty sure, because between school and life, there was never any money for fun (after the weed was purchased of course).  i wished like hell i had then the mediums available nowadays to enjoy venues and musicians i had to miss sometimes (imagine life without shadowboxes, twitter, or even decent radio stations, except the fuzzy college station no one listened to because 'alternative' actually meant 'shit no one has heard of), because 'solid gold' was a horrible show and never hosted the folks i liked to listen to on the college station.  mtv was cool back then, though, that was a bright spot in a hard world to find good music (that wasn't in the top 40) in.  

the thing about it now is, no one has to miss anything that has been recorded, ever.  just ask youtube to bring it to you.

[The Angel Raliel]

If the webcasts became more structured and became more of an online discussion show/chatshow format with guests (showcasing artists and musicians work) i can see paying or donating being a viable route....the party on the internet type things and the two online auctions would not work consitently as a pay per view format. Also the major problem with paying online assumes that the bulk of the audience have the means and methods of being able to pay online.....

[Andy Pants]

I have no strong opinions on this.

[Mr. Leave Me Alone]

Rachael (blazingfirefly) has already posted my thoughts on this because she posted about a discussion we had about it.
A lot of artists charge for you to watch their stuff, read their blogs and well...to be a fan. And I've seen it become an elitist thing too...'I'm a member of the official fan club, I pay £20 a month, I'm a bigger, better fan than you or anyone else.' (which doesn't mean a lot, really. Just 'I can afford to spend money on reading some stuff someone else wrote on a web page' and I think the charging for webcasts thing is quite similar) and the artist is rarely as close with the fans as Amanda is with hers. It would break my heart to see that ruined because it's made a huge effect on lots of people.

I'm probably not going to bother reading this or posting here again, to be perfectly honest. It won't bother me unless any of these things actually happen. So if anyone does reply to this (whether in agreement or to say that I'm a rambling idiot), I probably won't see it.

[darkling]

Oh god this is hard. There is not going to be a right answer and I do so like right answers. It's that symbiotic relationship again - I need her to have money to live and make art so that I can have her art which I need to live  Here follow incoherent thoughts:

Occasionally I have caught myself thinking that Amanda seems at times to spend a lot of time specifically generating money, and wishing she could just concentrate on the music. I'm not proud and I recognise that's simpleminded. I also find myself wishing that she'd come back to Australia soon, as I'm beginning to forget how awesome she is, and she is very awesome, which leads to...

I love that there is so much in the internet smorgasbord. Time zones and 9-5 jobs put me out of the webcasts, but I still love that they are there. I love that there are all these other options to let me submerge in the Amandaverse at will (twitter & twitpics, ARG, blogs, youtube, postwartrade stuff...). The bonus extra reward to Amanda fandom is connection and it is very accessible. Let people participate however they want to and pity those who have to compulsivly read absolutely everything for they shall never sleep. Caveat: the live experience needs to exist (and is it all sustainable?)

I had an odd moment after a show when I realised I'd thrown more into the Danger Ensemble's boot than I'd spent on the ticket price, when Amanda had been apologising about the venue set ticket price in the first place. I would have liked more money to go her way. I don't know how to fix this. Would throwing random money into a virtual tip hat would really make a difference - but a girl only needs so many t-shirts. Sometimes the fan base seems to throb with cries of "feed me". I want a way to support Amanda while striking the comfortable space between that and charity.

Now I've typed Amanda so many times that it looks like Am-And-A, so I'm going to stop. But yes, don't be afraid to take my money, I need you to.

 

[CourtneyFG]

I had an odd moment after a show when I realised I'd thrown more into the Danger Ensemble's boot than I'd spent on the ticket price, when Amanda had been apologising about the venue set ticket price in the first place. I would have liked more money to go her way.
 

i too, was going to mention this in my post but i couldn't find the right place for it in my rant.

for those who don't know. amanda palmer fans were swindled out of money at the brisbane show for the australian leg of her tour. amanda strives to keep ticket prices under the $30 mark so as to make her shows more accessible. however she was shocked to find out and apologized profusely for the fact the the tickets for the brisbane show cost over $50+bf (which i'm assuming the venue took most of)

to compensate for this and to help the DE allot of us did contribute more then the price of the ticket when the tip boots were being passed around.

even though her touring has slowed at the moment i think a boot/hat/stocking/jar, should be passed around at all shows for those to contribute who can and want to.

$30 is cheep and so is $50, in comparison to allot of other gigs for other artists i have been to, so i don't mind chipping in the extra money, especially since seeing amanda live, is the highlight of all the bands i have ever seen (and i've seen allot of bands)

[Agonistes]

If the webcasts became more structured and became more of an online discussion show/chatshow format with guests (showcasing artists and musicians work) i can see paying or donating being a viable route....the party on the internet type things and the two online auctions would not work consitently as a pay per view format. Also the major problem with paying online assumes that the bulk of the audience have the means and methods of being able to pay online.....

sometimes, and definitely in this situation, retail can be an astonishing gauge of market.  i have often measured advertising effectiveness, general world state of affairs (meaning, are we all broke this week or not), and just plain popularity in mere tee shirts.  for example, the number of LOFNOTC shirts that flew out of thin air in one evening, without warning, for a quarter of a bill...that was an impressive number.

but, as was said, 'a girl can only have so many tee shirts.'  considering the response to that night, though, and also considering that, had they somehow miraculously been able to offer the shirts for three to five bucks, i would imagine the response would have been even more overwhelming.  the word 'webcast' has been tossed around as a possibility, but it's only an idea; what's more interesting to me is the fact that there is a discussion at all between a fanbase and its icon as to how to establish an entirely new relationship of give and take.  as in any balanced relationship, both sides have to evenly give and take, or one side of course feels put out and unappreciated.

but, there's only one amanda, and a fuckload of us, so in the end, no matter what amanda ends up doing, there will be a percentage of people not reached, utilized, satisfied, inundated to their specifications, or recognized.  what's encouraging is that i'm seeing the people asking for support try their damndest to keep everyone happy as much of the time as possible, which should honestly be taken into account considering the undertaking that is.  mistakes can, do, and will happen, like the thing with the books, or other stuff i can't think of, but i also saw everyone involved with the books shagging ass to fix it and apologizing the whole way to get people what they paid for (and keep them excited about it), and fix it again if what they got wasn't right.

i see a webcast as something that might work well once, maybe twice.  what's hard to come up with is something that can be done continuously and generate enough income to justify it's existence as a 'product', and also stimulates the fan base enough to make it worth paying for....because let's be honest; the things that work great spontaneously won't always work when they become commonplace, and it's almost not worth the challenge to have to be completely original each time you need an influx of cash.

i think raffles are an excellent idea, too.  i'm of the opinion that the best thing any icon could offer a fan is personal time.  i don't know whether the imagery of raffling off a dinner date or a jam session or a slumber party or even a phone call or whatever is exactly the right one, but i know i'd drop cash on a chance to have a quiet, non-rushed conversation with a lot of people i admire.  meeting them at a venue or a quick handshake is great, but it's also a lot of pressure; a fan has like five seconds to blurt something gushy and lame, and the person being met also has one chance with that individual to not roll their eyes from tiredness and have it taken as boredom or disdain or whatever.

wow, i am all over this thread (and all over the place with the rambling).  sorry if i seem bombastic or redundant.  the subject of art = cash is a really interesting one to me, though.

[Cecily]

I think I can finally put to words why paying for a webcast doesn't interest me.  Something I respect about Amanda is she is using the internet to share her art.  She never has a problem with people uploading youtube clips.  She frequently does so herself.  She is constantly using the web for all it's worth to touch her fanbase.  It's free.  People then decide to to go to the next step and purchase her album or book or go to a concert.  Doing a paid webcast seems to contradict all that work she has been doing to share her art.  I by no means can say for sure, but I would guess that she has gotten a lot of fans because of that freeness in using the internet.

Also, the idea of watching a 'concert' on the web, just really doesn't interest me.  I watched the auction, because that was her and Beth talking and being goofy.  I am just not much for sitting in front of my computer to watch what IMHO should be live.  I adore seeing her live.  If there was anyway I could afford it I would go to the NYC, Philly, and Falls Church shows, but that just ain't gonna happen. 

[Kenny Wisdom]

God, I was so hoping the art would take me away from my bills and my skintness and the wolves at my door and the man who wants the shirt from my back and all the other shitty 1001 reasons I have to get up every day.

But it didn't, in the end, did it?

Do what you have to do, AFP, just stop bleating it from the rooftops.

I might start resenting you.

[darkling]

Do what you have to do, AFP, just stop bleating it from the rooftops.

I might start resenting you.

Ouch. Though I will concede that this is the bit that I am quasi-uncomfortable with. I can hear my mother's voice telling me that it's uncouth to speak about money so openly. I could also see people who live on a fixed budget and need to make very careful spending decisions becoming resentful if Amanda isn't quite 'starving' enough (there's that nasty idea again), particularly when some of these individual events are earning some people's anual incomes.

In the end it just makes the whole equation messy - I don't want to know the numbers.- but I understand that Ms Palmer wishes to be open in her trailblazing to show the path to other artists, so I'll deal. I wonder if anyone has been as open back - has anyone in a signing line just handed over cash without the safety of a tipping hat?   

[CeeGBee]

Do what you have to do, AFP, just stop bleating it from the rooftops.

I might start resenting you.

Ouch. Though I will concede that this is the bit that I am quasi-uncomfortable with. I can hear my mother's voice telling me that it's uncouth to speak about money so openly. I could also see people who live on a fixed budget and need to make very careful spending decisions becoming resentful if Amanda isn't quite 'starving' enough (there's that nasty idea again), particularly when some of these individual events are earning some people's anual incomes.

In the end it just makes the whole equation messy - I don't want to know the numbers.- but I understand that Ms Palmer wishes to be open in her trailblazing to show the path to other artists, so I'll deal. I wonder if anyone has been as open back - has anyone in a signing line just handed over cash without the safety of a tipping hat?   

I'm of slightly mixed feelings here... 
On the one hand it is generally considered tacky to talk about the money with your customers (which, in this context is us).

On the other, I'm pretty sure it is to everyone's benefit (except a few asshats who run record companies, and they can all
find jobs flippin' burgers) if The Industry cuts out a whole lot of middlemen, and for that to happen, people like Amanda, who
are making it work for themselves (to a greater or lesser degree), need to spread the word...

This is why, as many have pointed out in recent years, Well-Behaved Women Seldom Make History.

So, for what my opinion's worth, Amanda should go right on flashing her financial knickers, and I'll try not
to cringe too much when she does it...

[virtual~mary]

I envision a paid webcast to be like this (as an example): 1-2 new songs have been written and are performable. Covers, new songs, whatever. Instead of debuting them at a venue, debut them in a paid webcast. In my mind, that's less alienating and less exclusive than premireing the songs live, where only a select amount of people get to see them.

I can see an objection being that something like this should be free, but then you really aren't agreeing with the essence of the blog. I would definitely pay 3-5 bucks to see a song debuted live, from one of my favorite bands. Would you feel alienated if you couldn't? Any more alienated than if you saw a youtube brodcast of a live song being debuted elsewhere? Would it be worth the money to get to see that debut live(ish)?

i like the idea, kovacs, and you're right, it would be more inclusive than debuting songs at a live show in one place with one audience. i would pay a reasonable fee to stream exclusive content (non-archivable) of this nature.

with regard to an auction webcast, no, i would not pay an entry fee. i tuned in to one of afp's auctions (2nd one) long enough to satisfy my curiosity, but didn't bid on what i saw. i don't go for personal effects, but might bid on an exclusive piece of art by the artist either offered directly or for a worthwhile cause.

[Rob]

I mean, hell, for years everything happened in Boston. I never felt alienated. A bit jealous, in a good way, but not excluded.

Yeah...me neither...

[The Angel Raliel]

Thought just in............
why not create events under Amanda's name which are designed to promote her art and raise her money....this seems like an ideal opportunity for the Brigade to do things..... some years ago i organised Fuck The Back Row UK....no money was made from that but there is no reason why money cannot be generated for the artist without the artist being there....

anyone up for organising an AfP based money making event?

[Kardemumma]

Thought just in............
why not create events under Amanda's name which are designed to promote her art and raise her money....this seems like an ideal opportunity for the Brigade to do things..... some years ago i organised Fuck The Back Row UK....no money was made from that but there is no reason why money cannot be generated for the artist without the artist being there....

anyone up for organising an AfP based money making event?

I think this is a marvelous idea. I've been promoting Amanda in Finland as hard as I can and thinking what more I could do. The fanbase here is small so I don't know what we could do to make any money, but it might work in other places. For example, get a cheap venue, get local bands to play covers... If the money made is a small amount (or even none at all) such event might lead into someone discovering the music and buying merch and eventually will benefit AFP.